|
|
Post by thefleetsin on Sept 18, 2018 16:11:01 GMT
finding replacements for our gardeners and maids
fruit pickers aside
the
current dilemma about to collide
with
what in any other scenario
would be construed
as
cultural genocide.
whatever shall we do
if we
fail to provide
future generations
with
an exploitable labor
in which they can take pride.
sjw 09/18/18 inspired at this very moment in time by the core values in which we strive to maintain.
from the 'blitzkrieg series' of poems
|
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 18, 2018 17:32:41 GMT
If a seven year old steals something from a shop, whose "fault" is that? Most people would answer it's the parents fault for not watching the child. At some point though, the child will be old enough that the parents will not be blamed. Bona fide willful myopia. If the child's father created him with a destiny and purpose that would be fulfilled in his will you'd have a point... but you don't. I haven't 'seemed to think I have proved' anything... Psalm 147:5 "... his understanding has no limit"
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
1 John 3:20 "... he knows everything."
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
I think the above list of verses effectively proves that the god of the bible claims to be omnipotent and omniscient. I think we can safely take the 'if' out of 'if everything is God's will' phrase. But there are no verses that tie His will to all the bad things that happen, everything being his fault. He blames us (he created us) or evil or Satan; anything other than himself. Hmmm... Edited out, perhaps? Or is the whole bible just propaganda? The ultimate way for humans to deny any responsibility by saying, 'oh, it was god's will'. Well done, eddy! God of the Bible seems to be hoist on his own petard. |
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 18, 2018 18:26:10 GMT
Bona fide willful myopia. If the child's father created him with a destiny and purpose that would be fulfilled in his will you'd have a point... but you don't. I haven't 'seemed to think I have proved' anything... Psalm 147:5 "... his understanding has no limit"
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
1 John 3:20 "... he knows everything."
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
I think the above list of verses effectively proves that the god of the bible claims to be omnipotent and omniscient. I think we can safely take the 'if' out of 'if everything is God's will' phrase. But there are no verses that tie His will to all the bad things that happen, everything being his fault. He blames us (he created us) or evil or Satan; anything other than himself. Hmmm... Edited out, perhaps? Or is the whole bible just propaganda? The ultimate way for humans to deny any responsibility by saying, 'oh, it was god's will'. Well done, eddy! God of the Bible seems to be hoist on his own petard. That list does no such thing lol. |
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Sept 18, 2018 21:27:52 GMT
If a seven year old steals something from a shop, whose "fault" is that? Most people would answer it's the parents fault for not watching the child. At some point though, the child will be old enough that the parents will not be blamed. Bona fide willful myopia. If the child's father created him with a destiny and purpose that would be fulfilled in his will you'd have a point... but you don't. I haven't 'seemed to think I have proved' anything... Psalm 147:5 "... his understanding has no limit"
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
1 John 3:20 "... he knows everything."
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
We've been over this before on the old site. Omniscience does not mean there can be no freewill. The obvious problem with people who think those are "incompatible" has been explained. They are mentally retarded. They are not able to distinguish between knowledge and agency. For example I can "know" that you're an idiot, but that doesn't mean it's my fault. I am not the agency of your idiocy. Perhaps your parents were. Perhaps you ran into a brick wall really hard. None of that is my fault. It doesn't matter how the knowledge and the agency are arranged on a time line. Knowing something in advance does not mean agency of it any more any more than if the knowledge occurs later on the time line. Suppose I "know" that you're going to post something stupid on the internet next year. It still does not mean that your stupidity is my fault. See how easy that is? It's easy enough for other people anyway. Although the word "omniscient" covers every little detail, the word "plan" does not. Plans can be more or less specific. There can be considerable freedom with a "plan." So yes, it is you not the Bible who thinks God must be at fault for anything. Notice what this means. You should not post anything on the internet. The only thing you can possibly accomplish is show the world how little you understand. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Sept 18, 2018 22:24:30 GMT
Bona fide willful myopia. If the child's father created him with a destiny and purpose that would be fulfilled in his will you'd have a point... but you don't. I haven't 'seemed to think I have proved' anything... Psalm 147:5 "... his understanding has no limit"
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
1 John 3:20 "... he knows everything."
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
Hebrews 4:13 Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you
Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Job 42:2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
Psalm 138:8 The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me;
We've been over this before on the old site. Omniscience does not mean there can be no freewill. The obvious problem with people who think those are "incompatible" has been explained. They are mentally retarded. They are not able to distinguish between knowledge and agency. For example I can "know" that you're an idiot, but that doesn't mean it's my fault. I am not the agency of your idiocy. Perhaps your parents were. Perhaps you ran into a brick wall really hard. None of that is my fault. It doesn't matter how the knowledge and the agency are arranged on a time line. Knowing something in advance does not mean agency of it any more any more than if the knowledge occurs later on the time line. Suppose I "know" that you're going to post something stupid on the internet next year. It still does not mean that your stupidity is my fault. See how easy that is? It's easy enough for other people anyway. Although the word "omniscient" covers every little detail, the word "plan" does not. Plans can be more or less specific. There can be considerable freedom with a "plan." So yes, it is you not the Bible who thinks God must be at fault for anything. Notice what this means. You should not post anything on the internet. The only thing you can possibly accomplish is show the world how little you understand. Your argument would fly if we presuppose that god is omniscient in the sense that he has the power to know everything, but not to influence everything. This is what the word 'omniscience' means. Since the bible credits god not merely with omniscience, but with omnipotence as well, this undercuts your claim that although god knows what our future actions may be, he has no agency over them. If god created us--and all things--and wields absolute and unlimited power over all, then he does indeed have that agency, and although he may choose for whatever reason to withhold it, the fact remains that his very omnipotence makes unadulterated 'free will' illusory. |
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Sept 18, 2018 23:23:39 GMT
We've been over this before on the old site. Omniscience does not mean there can be no freewill. The obvious problem with people who think those are "incompatible" has been explained. They are mentally retarded. They are not able to distinguish between knowledge and agency. For example I can "know" that you're an idiot, but that doesn't mean it's my fault. I am not the agency of your idiocy. Perhaps your parents were. Perhaps you ran into a brick wall really hard. None of that is my fault. It doesn't matter how the knowledge and the agency are arranged on a time line. Knowing something in advance does not mean agency of it any more any more than if the knowledge occurs later on the time line. Suppose I "know" that you're going to post something stupid on the internet next year. It still does not mean that your stupidity is my fault. See how easy that is? It's easy enough for other people anyway. Although the word "omniscient" covers every little detail, the word "plan" does not. Plans can be more or less specific. There can be considerable freedom with a "plan." So yes, it is you not the Bible who thinks God must be at fault for anything. Notice what this means. You should not post anything on the internet. The only thing you can possibly accomplish is show the world how little you understand. Your argument would fly if we presuppose that god is omniscient in the sense that he has the power to know everything, but not to influence everything. This is what the word 'omniscience' means. Since the bible credits god not merely with omniscience, but with omnipotence as well, this undercuts your claim that although god knows what our future actions may be, he has no agency over them. If god created us--and all things--and wields absolute and unlimited power over all, then he does indeed have that agency, and although he may choose for whatever reason to withhold it, the fact remains that his very omnipotence makes unadulterated 'free will' illusory. If a god is "omnipotent" should that not include the ability to create other beings or agencies with the ability to make their own decisions? Even human parents do that. Then whatever the god might know about those agencies they are still the agency in their many choices. Also observe that an "omnipotent" being with the power to do anything is not "bound" to do anything and can "withhold" overriding the choices of the other agencies. |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 0:04:08 GMT
I think the above list of verses effectively proves that the god of the bible claims to be omnipotent and omniscient. I think we can safely take the 'if' out of 'if everything is God's will' phrase. But there are no verses that tie His will to all the bad things that happen, everything being his fault. He blames us (he created us) or evil or Satan; anything other than himself. Hmmm... Edited out, perhaps? Or is the whole bible just propaganda? The ultimate way for humans to deny any responsibility by saying, 'oh, it was god's will'. Well done, eddy! God of the Bible seems to be hoist on his own petard. That list does no such thing lol. Don't you mean that ' The way that YOU interpret it it doesn't? |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 0:14:38 GMT
\ a We've been over this before on the old site. Omniscience does not mean there can be no freewill. The obvious problem with people who think those are "incompatible" has been explained. They are mentally retarded. They are not able to distinguish between knowledge and agency. For example I can "know" that you're an idiot, but that doesn't mean it's my fault. I am not the agency of your idiocy. Perhaps your parents were. Perhaps you ran into a brick wall really hard. None of that is my fault. It doesn't matter how the knowledge and the agency are arranged on a time line. Knowing something in advance does not mean agency of it any more any more than if the knowledge occurs later on the time line. Suppose I "know" that you're going to post something stupid on the internet next year. It still does not mean that your stupidity is my fault. See how easy that is? It's easy enough for other people anyway. Although the word "omniscient" covers every little detail, the word "plan" does not. Plans can be more or less specific. There can be considerable freedom with a "plan." So yes, it is you not the Bible who thinks God must be at fault for anything. Notice what this means. You should not post anything on the internet. The only thing you can possibly accomplish is show the world how little you understand. Your argument would fly if we presuppose that god is omniscient in the sense that he has the power to know everything, but not to influence everything. This is what the word 'omniscience' means. Since the bible credits god not merely with omniscience, but with omnipotence as well, this undercuts your claim that although god knows what our future actions may be, he has no agency over them. If god created us--and all things--and wields absolute and unlimited power over all, then he does indeed have that agency, and although he may choose for whatever reason to withhold it, the fact remains that his very omnipotence makes unadulterated 'free will' illusory.Aye, and there's the rub for the religious Christian. The whole power grab scenario of 'original sin' and 'free will' where the 'faithful' are duped into believing that a) God is BOTH omniscient and omnipotent YET because of the whole b) original sin and free will scenario overlaid on that..... the result is guilt and power over the 'believer'. It is not only illusory butt illogical contradictory and hypocritical In short, IF God is omniscient an omnipotent then there CANNOT be free will and original sin. It is just like the fact that if God is God and he has a son Jesus, that they can't BOTH be God. End of Story. Amen. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 11:46:53 GMT
Your argument would fly if we presuppose that god is omniscient in the sense that he has the power to know everything, but not to influence everything. This is what the word 'omniscience' means. Since the bible credits god not merely with omniscience, but with omnipotence as well, this undercuts your claim that although god knows what our future actions may be, he has no agency over them. If god created us--and all things--and wields absolute and unlimited power over all, then he does indeed have that agency, and although he may choose for whatever reason to withhold it, the fact remains that his very omnipotence makes unadulterated 'free will' illusory. If a god is "omnipotent" should that not include the ability to create other beings or agencies with the ability to make their own decisions? Even human parents do that. Then whatever the god might know about those agencies they are still the agency in their many choices. Also observe that an "omnipotent" being with the power to do anything is not "bound" to do anything and can "withhold" overriding the choices of the other agencies. The good old, time-tested end run around god's omnipotence: god is lord and master of all, creator of all, and holds all power over his creation, except when I find that this formula leads to some embarrassing conclusions about him, and then--omnipotent? Benevolent? A 'loving father'? Not so much. Epicurus' trilemma:
If he is all powerful he Cannot be all good
One of the earliest uses of the trilemma formulation is that of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, rejecting the idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God (as summarised by David Hume): If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
Sorry Arlon, I'm not granting your god the universal Christian 'get out of jail free' card. It would seem the Greeks, possessors of those elegant and subtle minds, were onto this whole thing back from the very beginning. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 11:51:41 GMT
That list does no such thing lol. Don't you mean that ' The way that YOU interpret it it doesn't? Too bad that, as per usual, he can't 'explain' to us why it doesn't--we're just to take that as fact on his unsupported say-so. I hope he's taking something for that God Delusion. |
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Sept 19, 2018 12:05:11 GMT
If a god is "omnipotent" should that not include the ability to create other beings or agencies with the ability to make their own decisions? Even human parents do that. Then whatever the god might know about those agencies they are still the agency in their many choices. Also observe that an "omnipotent" being with the power to do anything is not "bound" to do anything and can "withhold" overriding the choices of the other agencies. The good old, time-tested end run around god's omnipotence: god is lord and master of all, creator of all, and holds all power over his creation, except when I find that this formula leads to some embarrassing conclusions about him, and then--omnipotent? Benevolent? A 'loving father'? Not so much. Epicurus' trilemma:
If he is all powerful he Cannot be all good
One of the earliest uses of the trilemma formulation is that of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, rejecting the idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God (as summarised by David Hume): If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
Sorry Arlon, I'm not granting your god the universal Christian 'get out of jail free' card. It would seem the Greeks, possessors of those elegant and subtle minds, were onto this whole thing back from the very beginning. I suppose it's a wonderful assumption, if there is a perfect god, then everything should be perfect. For one thing though it isn't necessarily true. It is based on assumptions about good and evil that might not be valid. For another thing the "dilemma" was actually resolved long before Epicurus, and many school children today know the answer. The perfect god has granted many of his creations the ability to make their own choices. You might argue that the god shouldn't have done that, but a lot of people find it wonderful enough that they can choose good on their own. Outside there might be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but how is that their problem? Those wailing and the gnashing create their own problem. What are you going to do? Turn them into mindless robots? The irony here is that you are exercising your ability to choose when you think your opinion matters. If you had no ability to choose your opinion would not matter. Another thing you need to realize is that your opinion does not matter to me, nor should it, as you are obviously ignorant of far too many things. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 14:20:39 GMT
When Arlon is compelled to repeatedly and emphatically disagree with you... you know you hold the truth in your hand.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 19, 2018 17:29:47 GMT
That list does no such thing lol. Don't you mean that ' The way that YOU interpret it it doesn't? No, but let's pretend it is. This would still mean that we are arguing interpretations and Eddie's is still wrong in relation to mine. You see how that goofy it is to try and make an argument based off of that statement now? |
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 19, 2018 17:31:09 GMT
Don't you mean that ' The way that YOU interpret it it doesn't? Too bad that, as per usual, he can't 'explain' to us why it doesn't--we're just to take that as fact on his unsupported say-so. I hope he's taking something for that God Delusion. I've explained this at least one fewer times as it has been brought up. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 17:57:02 GMT
Too bad that, as per usual, he can't 'explain' to us why it doesn't--we're just to take that as fact on his unsupported say-so. I hope he's taking something for that God Delusion. I've explained this at least one fewer times as it has been brought up. So, humor us and 'explain' it again. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 18:05:36 GMT
Don't you mean that ' The way that YOU interpret it it doesn't? No, but let's pretend it is. This would still mean that we are arguing interpretations and Eddie's is still wrong in relation to mine. Yet you aren't, you're arguing definitions of words, not interpretations. What other could Through him all things were made be interpreted as, other than what it literally states? |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 18:05:47 GMT
The good old, time-tested end run around god's omnipotence: god is lord and master of all, creator of all, and holds all power over his creation, except when I find that this formula leads to some embarrassing conclusions about him, and then--omnipotent? Benevolent? A 'loving father'? Not so much. Epicurus' trilemma:
If he is all powerful he Cannot be all good
One of the earliest uses of the trilemma formulation is that of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, rejecting the idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God (as summarised by David Hume): If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
Sorry Arlon, I'm not granting your god the universal Christian 'get out of jail free' card. It would seem the Greeks, possessors of those elegant and subtle minds, were onto this whole thing back from the very beginning. I suppose it's a wonderful assumption, if there is a perfect god, then everything should be perfect. For one thing though it isn't necessarily true. It is based on assumptions about good and evil that might not be valid. For another thing the "dilemma" was actually resolved long before Epicurus, and many school children today know the answer. The perfect god has granted many of his creations the ability to make their own choices. You might argue that the god shouldn't have done that, but a lot of people find it wonderful enough that they can choose good on their own. Outside there might be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but how is that their problem? Those wailing and the gnashing create their own problem. What are you going to do? Turn them into mindless robots? The irony here is that you are exercising your ability to choose when you think your opinion matters. If you had no ability to choose your opinion would not matter. Another thing you need to realize is that your opinion does not matter to me, nor should it, as you are obviously ignorant of far too many things.Isn't that pretty much what god intended for his creations prior to that nasty ole debbil sneaking in and messing it up by tempting them to the power of choice? Nothing in Genesis gives any indication that god intended for Adam and Eve to have free will or the power to knowingly choose between 'good' and 'bad'.
God did not grant humanity the power to make the choice between good and evil, if we are to believe the story of the creation at face value. That power was granted to humanity by Satan, who encouraged Eve to eat from the tree which God had created--which implies that omniscient God knowingly and deliberately placed temptation directly in the path of his 'perfect' creation.
God doesn't sound too bloody 'omnipotent' or 'loving' if he was unable or unwilling to prevent Satan from doing this, so despite what every schoolchild knows, it would appear Epicurus was definitely onto something. Few loving parents will blandly stand by while a malefactor urges their child to ingest something the parent knows will be harmful.
"Another thing you need to realize is that your opinion does not matter to me, nor should it, as you are obviously ignorant of far too many things."
Temper, temper, Arlon. It's seldom that people continue to argue a point with someone whose opinion doesn't matter to them. And why is it that you loving, benevolent followers of Christ always seem to be among the first to trot out the slurs, insults, snide remarks and ad hominems in just about every debate you have with the non-believers? You can't hope to win over many converts that way 
|
|
|
|
Post by thefleetsin on Sept 19, 2018 19:06:52 GMT
archiving the active shooters in your area alone
the kids
in the kingdom of the heart
were
more than happy
to set aside the sandinista shuffle
they'd been involved in
since the ronnie raygun administration
seeings how they were now
mostly dead or
fast approaching their doldrums.
but the did have to requisition
a new system
of data manipulation
to keep up with the over saturation
cultures of death
tend to leave in their wake.
of course
being children they knew that adults
can sometimes juggle
huge mistakes
and never realize the proclamations they make
revolving around peace loving
tend to come off as fake
especially when
the four and twenty nra backed criminals
that your trying to bake
into a pie
is never going to fly
unless your headed straight to a hell
where jesus is a fry cook
serving up hollows points in fat-ladened
taco shells.
sjw 09/19/18 inspired at this very moment in time by the reallocating of work loads here in the kingdom of the heart.
from the 'baby series' of poems
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Sept 19, 2018 21:15:05 GMT
I suppose it's a wonderful assumption, if there is a perfect god, then everything should be perfect. For one thing though it isn't necessarily true. It is based on assumptions about good and evil that might not be valid. For another thing the "dilemma" was actually resolved long before Epicurus, and many school children today know the answer. The perfect god has granted many of his creations the ability to make their own choices. You might argue that the god shouldn't have done that, but a lot of people find it wonderful enough that they can choose good on their own. Outside there might be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but how is that their problem? Those wailing and the gnashing create their own problem. What are you going to do? Turn them into mindless robots? The irony here is that you are exercising your ability to choose when you think your opinion matters. If you had no ability to choose your opinion would not matter. Another thing you need to realize is that your opinion does not matter to me, nor should it, as you are obviously ignorant of far too many things.Isn't that pretty much what god intended for his creations prior to that nasty ole debbil sneaking in and messing it up by tempting them to the power of choice? Nothing in Genesis gives any indication that god intended for Adam and Eve to have free will or the power to knowingly choose between 'good' and 'bad'.
God did not grant humanity the power to make the choice between good and evil, if we are to believe the story of the creation at face value. That power was granted to humanity by Satan, who encouraged Eve to eat from the tree which God had created--which implies that omniscient God knowingly and deliberately placed temptation directly in the path of his 'perfect' creation.
God doesn't sound too bloody 'omnipotent' or 'loving' if he was unable or unwilling to prevent Satan from doing this, so despite what every schoolchild knows, it would appear Epicurus was definitely onto something. Few loving parents will blandly stand by while a malefactor urges their child to ingest something the parent knows will be harmful.
"Another thing you need to realize is that your opinion does not matter to me, nor should it, as you are obviously ignorant of far too many things."
Temper, temper, Arlon. It's seldom that people continue to argue a point with someone whose opinion doesn't matter to them. And why is it that you loving, benevolent followers of Christ always seem to be among the first to trot out the slurs, insults, snide remarks and ad hominems in just about every debate you have with the non-believers? You can't hope to win over many converts that way
You aren't the only person who reads what I write to you. Adam and Eve had every choice in the Garden of Eden but one. I tell you the truth including about yourself as I see it. I have no intention of harming you. That you assume I am a "follower of Christ" without ever being told any such thing shows what a tangled mess your understanding of religion is. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Sept 19, 2018 21:30:42 GMT
Isn't that pretty much what god intended for his creations prior to that nasty ole debbil sneaking in and messing it up by tempting them to the power of choice? Nothing in Genesis gives any indication that god intended for Adam and Eve to have free will or the power to knowingly choose between 'good' and 'bad'.
God did not grant humanity the power to make the choice between good and evil, if we are to believe the story of the creation at face value. That power was granted to humanity by Satan, who encouraged Eve to eat from the tree which God had created--which implies that omniscient God knowingly and deliberately placed temptation directly in the path of his 'perfect' creation.
God doesn't sound too bloody 'omnipotent' or 'loving' if he was unable or unwilling to prevent Satan from doing this, so despite what every schoolchild knows, it would appear Epicurus was definitely onto something. Few loving parents will blandly stand by while a malefactor urges their child to ingest something the parent knows will be harmful.
"Another thing you need to realize is that your opinion does not matter to me, nor should it, as you are obviously ignorant of far too many things."
Temper, temper, Arlon. It's seldom that people continue to argue a point with someone whose opinion doesn't matter to them. And why is it that you loving, benevolent followers of Christ always seem to be among the first to trot out the slurs, insults, snide remarks and ad hominems in just about every debate you have with the non-believers? You can't hope to win over many converts that way
You aren't the only person who reads what I write to you. Adam and Eve had every choice in the Garden of Eden but one. I tell you the truth including about yourself as I see it. I have no intention of harming you. That you assume I am a "follower of Christ" without ever being told any such thing shows what a tangled mess your understanding of religion is. Adam and Eve had every choice in the Garden of Eden but one.
Really? What would that choice have been?
I tell you the truth including about yourself as I see it. I have no intention of harming you.
Well, I suppose that's fortunate, otherwise you'd have failed in that objective. As to 'telling me the truth about myself', that's not only a bit hubristic, I have to say I can't see where you've told me anything about myself, true or otherwise. If you're referring to that habit you have of denigrating the intelligence of others the better to support your notion that you're the most intelligent person in the room, that tells more of a 'truth' about you than it does about me, or anyone else you've attempted that tactic on.
That you assume I am a "follower of Christ" without ever being told any such thing shows what a tangled mess your understanding of religion is.
Ah then, if you're not and are simply playing devil's advocate, perhaps you should identify yourself as such. And if my understanding of religion is a 'tangled mess', it's surely no more a tangled mess than your attempts to explain any aspects of it have been. So if you're positing yourself as the way, the truth and the light, I suggest you go back to the want ads and seek another vocation.
|
|
