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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 7, 2018 6:17:00 GMT
For all the people who didn't bother to watch BP (DC-Fan specifically), in the scene just before M'Baku fights T'Challa for the throne, Nakia specifically declines to challenge T'Challa. Meaning she could actually have challenged him if she wished and ruled as ruler of wakanda had she won. As for Shuri fighting Killmonger, DC-Fan seems to think her family should have forced her to fight him against her will without giving her a choice. I would put that at the fault of the shitty quality video he used to steal the content. He probably couldn't hear or see most of the movie.
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Post by damngumby on Nov 7, 2018 6:17:37 GMT
Now that you mention it, it does seem a bit strange that Wakanda doesn't choose a female ruler even though it claims to be technologically superior than most first world countries. Don’t worry. Shari will become the Black Panther and ruler of Wakanda in the next Infinity War movie ... afterall, she becomes the Black Panther and ruler in the comics. The OP isn’t called Always Wrong for nothin’!
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Post by scabab on Nov 7, 2018 6:54:26 GMT
So basically you're confirming what I've bene saying - that they wanted a male (M'Baku) to challenge Killmonger for the throne instead of a female (T'Challa's sister) because they didn't believe a female could defeat Killmonger in combat. Right. So how does that devalue the female characters again? Why would a female scientist be able to defeat a male black ops soldier in combat? If M'Baku is a male warrior who almost beat T'Challa then naturally he would be able to stand a much better chance. Women can't beat men in combat, that's why they compete separately in professional sport.
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Post by hobowar on Nov 7, 2018 7:44:22 GMT
Not to sound sexist, but no, a woman could never beat Killmonger so it was wise for them to not have her challenge him.
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Post by hobowar on Nov 7, 2018 7:55:00 GMT
It's already well-known that MCU hasn't made a female-led movie in 10 years and 20 movies and is only making Captain Marvel as a reaction to WB announcing a Wonder Woman movie so I won't rehash that. But looking at MCU's movies so far, it sure seems that MCU likes to devalue and sometimes even demean female characters. For example, Tony Stark, who is known for being a playboy and sleeping with many different women, sleeps with a female reporter and then the female reporter is referred to as "Trash". That's really demeaning to women. And Black Panther takes the devaluation of female characters to a new level. Not only are all the women in Wakanda subservient to a King and have to take orders from a King, but women aren't allowed to rule in Wakanda. When Killmonger throws T'Challa over the edge of the waterfall, apparently killing T'Challa and winning the throne of Wakanda, the logical thing for T'Challa's family to do would be for T'Challa's sister to challenge Killmonger for the throne. But Wakanda doesn't allow women to rule. So instead of T'Challa's sister, who's at 100%, challenge Killmonger for the throne, they needed a wounded T'Challa who was almost killed and who isn't at 100% to challenge Killmonger for the throne. Was it because they didn't believe a female could defeat Killmonger? Or was it simply because Wakanda doesn't allow women to rule? Either way, it devalues women. How many times have you watched Black Panther now? ![](https://s26.postimg.cc/gf93ycxax/giveup.gif) I'd say probably over 9000.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 7, 2018 15:39:09 GMT
So basically you're confirming what I've bene saying - that they wanted a male (M'Baku) to challenge Killmonger for the throne instead of a female (T'Challa's sister) because they didn't believe a female could defeat Killmonger in combat. Right. So how does that devalue the female characters again? Why would a female scientist be able to defeat a male black ops soldier in combat? If M'Baku is a male warrior who almost beat T'Challa then naturally he would be able to stand a much better chance. Women can't beat men in combat, that's why they compete separately in professional sport. So how is a female ever meant to become the Queen of Wakanda if the initiation process only involves males, where females have no chance to win?
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Post by sostie on Nov 7, 2018 16:19:09 GMT
It's nice that he is concerned about how women are "devalued" in MCU films.
Some might say it's a little ironic seeing he has listed his Top 5 Playmates on his imdb page
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 7, 2018 16:19:55 GMT
Oh, DC-Fan, never change. Never change.
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Post by bud47 on Nov 7, 2018 16:46:48 GMT
Right. So how does that devalue the female characters again? Why would a female scientist be able to defeat a male black ops soldier in combat? If M'Baku is a male warrior who almost beat T'Challa then naturally he would be able to stand a much better chance. Women can't beat men in combat, that's why they compete separately in professional sport. So how is a female ever meant to become the Queen of Wakanda if the initiation process only involves males, where females have no chance to win? The initiation process does not only involve males. As someone else stated, Nakia was presented as a representative from her tribe to challenge for the throne. She declined. Most likely because she realized that T'Challa was an intelligent, capable leader, better suited for role of king. Her past romantic relationship with him no doubt also complicated things. She also felt she was better suited to helping people in more covert, clandestine ways, where a king/queen may have more difficulty. Had she felt differently, she would have challenged. During the final battle in the film, she was shown to be an effective combatant and warrior against Killmonger, who had an advantage due to the Panther suit he was wearing and abilities from the heart shaped herb he had taken. So she could have easily presented a physical challenge to someone without those advantages.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 7, 2018 16:57:12 GMT
Right. So how does that devalue the female characters again? Why would a female scientist be able to defeat a male black ops soldier in combat? If M'Baku is a male warrior who almost beat T'Challa then naturally he would be able to stand a much better chance. Women can't beat men in combat, that's why they compete separately in professional sport. So how is a female ever meant to become the Queen of Wakanda if the initiation process only involves males, where females have no chance to win? I have already proven this false in my previous post. Nakia was specifically given the chance to challenge for rulership but chose to decline.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 7, 2018 19:50:50 GMT
So how is a female ever meant to become the Queen of Wakanda if the initiation process only involves males, where females have no chance to win? The initiation process does not only involve males. As someone else stated, Nakia was presented as a representative from her tribe to challenge for the throne. She declined. Most likely because she realized that T'Challa was an intelligent, capable leader, better suited for role of king. Her past romantic relationship with him no doubt also complicated things. She also felt she was better suited to helping people in more covert, clandestine ways, where a king/queen may have more difficulty. Had she felt differently, she would have challenged. During the final battle in the film, she was shown to be an effective combatant and warrior against Killmonger, who had an advantage due to the Panther suit he was wearing and abilities from the heart shaped herb he had taken. So she could have easily presented a physical challenge to someone without those advantages. Fair enough but its not like there is an unbiased platform to become king/Queen of Wakanda. Women are not going to beat men enough times for their to be an equal share of female to male Monarchs. The system inherently favours men.
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 7, 2018 19:52:37 GMT
So how does that devalue the female characters again? Why would a female scientist be able to defeat a male black ops soldier in combat? If M'Baku is a male warrior who almost beat T'Challa then naturally he would be able to stand a much better chance. It devalues women because they wanted a male warrior to challenge Killmonger for the throne. You say that T'Challa's sister isn't a warrior. OK, but Wakanda's army has female warriors. So why didn't they ask 1 of the female warriors to challenge Killmonger for the throne instead of trying to get to a male warrior to challenge Killmonger for the throne? It's either because they didn't believe a female warrior could defeat Killmonger in combat or because Wakanda doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule. Either way, it devalues women. Women can't beat men in combat The Amazons defeated German soldiers who had rifles.
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 7, 2018 19:58:58 GMT
Not to sound sexist, but no, a woman could never beat Killmonger so it was wise for them to not have her challenge him. So MCU made the female warriors in Wakanda too weak to be able to challenge and defeat Killmonger in combat. A big contrast from the Amazons, who defeated German soldiers with rifles. Black Panther pretty much devalues women by making them weak and only there to be subservient to a King and take orders from a King.
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 7, 2018 20:06:24 GMT
Right. So how does that devalue the female characters again? Why would a female scientist be able to defeat a male black ops soldier in combat? If M'Baku is a male warrior who almost beat T'Challa then naturally he would be able to stand a much better chance. Women can't beat men in combat, that's why they compete separately in professional sport. So how is a female ever meant to become the Queen of Wakanda if the initiation process only involves males, where females have no chance to win? They can't. The Wakandan elders knew that by making the succession ritual to be a mortal combat, only the males would ever be able to win and be able to rule Wakanda. Of course, Wakanda has had thousands of years to change the succession ritual to give females an equal and fair chance to win the throne (by making the succession ritual based on intelligence instead of just brute strength), but they haven't done so because they want a society where the rulers are always male. Even the UK has changed their succession rules so that a female child would be higher in the line of succession than a male child who is younger. But Wakanda wont change their succession ritual because they want a society where the rulers are always male.
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 7, 2018 20:11:41 GMT
So how is a female ever meant to become the Queen of Wakanda if the initiation process only involves males, where females have no chance to win? The initiation process does not only involve males. As someone else stated, Nakia was presented as a representative from her tribe to challenge for the throne. She declined. Most likely because she realized that T'Challa was an intelligent, capable leader, better suited for role of king. Or most likely because she knew the succession ritual gives an advantage to males and she knew she couldn't defeat a male in combat. Not wanting to challenge T'Challa had nothing to do with it, as proven by the fact that after Killmonger threw T'Challa over the edge of the waterfall and claimed the throne and everyone thought T'Challa was dead, Nakia (or any of the other female warriors) could've challenged Killmonger for the throne. But neither T'Challa's sister nor Nakia nor any of the other female warriors challenged Killmonger for the throne. Either because they didn't believe a female warrior could defeat Killmonger in combat or because Wakanda doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule. Either way, it devalues women.
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 7, 2018 20:14:31 GMT
So how is a female ever meant to become the Queen of Wakanda if the initiation process only involves males, where females have no chance to win? I have already proven this false in my previous post. Nakia was specifically given the chance to challenge for rulership but chose to decline. No, you haven't proven anything. You say Nakia declined to challenge T'Challa for the throne. SO why didn't Nakia challenge Killmonger for the throne after Killmonger threw Killmonger over the edge of the waterfall and claimed the throne and everyone thought T'Challa was dead? Because either they didn't believe a female could defeat Killmonger in combat or Wakanda doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule. Either way, it devalues women.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 7, 2018 20:39:13 GMT
I have already proven this false in my previous post. Nakia was specifically given the chance to challenge for rulership but chose to decline. No, you haven't proven anything. You say Nakia declined to challenge T'Challa for the throne. SO why didn't Nakia challenge Killmonger for the throne after Killmonger threw Killmonger over the edge of the waterfall and claimed the throne and everyone thought T'Challa was dead? Because either they didn't believe a female could defeat Killmonger in combat or Wakanda doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule. Either way, it devalues women. Because Nakia has free will and is allowed to make her own choices. If she declined to challenge then that was her own choice. Or ar you one of those guys who think women should be forced to do what men (like you) think they should? In any case, nothing you say on this matter is of any import until such time as you actually watch the movie.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 7, 2018 20:43:45 GMT
The initiation process does not only involve males. As someone else stated, Nakia was presented as a representative from her tribe to challenge for the throne. She declined. Most likely because she realized that T'Challa was an intelligent, capable leader, better suited for role of king. Her past romantic relationship with him no doubt also complicated things. She also felt she was better suited to helping people in more covert, clandestine ways, where a king/queen may have more difficulty. Had she felt differently, she would have challenged. During the final battle in the film, she was shown to be an effective combatant and warrior against Killmonger, who had an advantage due to the Panther suit he was wearing and abilities from the heart shaped herb he had taken. So she could have easily presented a physical challenge to someone without those advantages. Fair enough but its not like there is an unbiased platform to become king/Queen of Wakanda. Women are not going to beat men enough times for their to be an equal share of female to male Monarchs. The system inherently favours men. Actually, it is an unbiased system. Unless you're saying they should implement a double standard that will provide special treatment for women just so they have an easier chance at ruling? Because that's biased.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 7, 2018 20:49:54 GMT
Fair enough but its not like there is an unbiased platform to become king/Queen of Wakanda. Women are not going to beat men enough times for their to be an equal share of female to male Monarchs. The system inherently favours men. Actually, it is an unbiased system. Unless you're saying they should implement a double standard that will provide special treatment for women just so they have an easier chance at ruling? Because that's biased. You saying that men and women are equal in combat?
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 7, 2018 20:53:20 GMT
Actually, it is an unbiased system. Unless you're saying they should implement a double standard that will provide special treatment for women just so they have an easier chance at ruling? Because that's biased. You saying that men and women are equal in combat? No. Still doesn't make their succession system biased. Their system treats their men and women the same and gives them the same opportunity. That's the complete opposite of being biased.
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