|
Post by hobowar on Nov 7, 2018 22:08:25 GMT
Nakia, Shuri and mommy Panther (Forgot her name) did conspire against Killmonger in what I'd call the smartest way possible. So rather than trying to win back the throne the legal way, the conspire to commit treason against their King and country. When protecting the entire world from Killmonger's evil plans, why would you care about the legal way?
|
|
|
Post by hobowar on Nov 7, 2018 22:09:42 GMT
But he started it... and he's a prick!
I'm glad someone understands.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Nov 7, 2018 22:56:34 GMT
You saying that men and women are equal in combat? This is the MCU. You've seen Black Widow in action and Peggy Carter and Melinda May and Elektra and T'Challa's bodyguards, and Colleen Wing, etc. Its not really an MCU complaint, more of the comic origins of wakanda and how they decided to write and build the world
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Nov 7, 2018 22:59:10 GMT
You saying that men and women are equal in combat? No. Still doesn't make their succession system biased. Their system treats their men and women the same and gives them the same opportunity. That's the complete opposite of being biased. I don't see how you can say its not biased. If women and men could compete for the same gold medal at Olympic wrestling, then men would have a clear advantage. Its biased in favour of male athletes. Men and women have equal opportunity to compete against each other but the natural biology of one is superior to the other in physical activities so it isnt fair.
|
|
|
Post by bud47 on Nov 7, 2018 23:01:08 GMT
For a society that is used to protecting it's borders and using a ritual of combat to determine the next ruler, it seems pretty evident that all tribe members are trained well in combat, including females as clearly evidenced in the film. Yet, not a single female warrior stepped forward to challenge Killmonger for the throne after Killmonger threw T'Challa over the edge of the waterfall and claimed the throne and everyone thought T'Challa was dead? So were all those well-trained female warriors just too scared to challenge Killmonger for the throne? Or was it because Wakanda doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule? Either way, it devalues women. I remember more female combatants and females in high/important positions in this film than male ones. Yet women in Wakanda aren't allowed to hold THE HIGHEST position in Wakanda - the monarch and absolute ruler. This is really needless nitpicking. Maybe there are rules that limit the amount of challenges in a given time. Maybe you can ask for a detailed Wakandan handbook or something. Why didn't anyone (regardless of gender) challenge Killmonger after throwing T'Challa over the waterfall? You could easily say the men were too scared as well. Why single out women as being demeaned? In fact, I think the rest of the film at that point should have just featured an endless line of people challenging Killmonger. That would make an entertaining film. The bottom line is that at the point of T'Challa's defeat by Killmonger, the film needed to progress further for purposes of the plot and the story and focus on the main characters of the film, not by throwing the pace off with endless possible challengers to the throne. The film clearly established that women ARE allowed to rule if they choose to challenge for the throne and subsequently win. Again, Nakia was given the choice to challenge. She declined. If she had challenged and won, which could have easily been the case with T'Challa's heart-shaped herb abilities removed and her being shown to be an exceptional combatant, she would be queen and absolute ruler. So, what you're saying is false.
|
|
|
Post by bud47 on Nov 7, 2018 23:04:55 GMT
No. Still doesn't make their succession system biased. Their system treats their men and women the same and gives them the same opportunity. That's the complete opposite of being biased. I don't see how you can say its not biased. If women and men could compete for the same gold medal at Olympic wrestling, then men would have a clear advantage. Its biased in favour of male athletes. Men and women have equal opportunity to compete against each other but the natural biology of one is superior to the other in physical activities so it isnt fair. Sure, if we're talking about strict hand-to-hand combat. However, in this case, weapons are allowed to be used, which depending on one's skills, can put both a man and woman on more equal standing.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 7, 2018 23:19:47 GMT
No. Still doesn't make their succession system biased. Their system treats their men and women the same and gives them the same opportunity. That's the complete opposite of being biased. How do women have the same opportunity to rule when the succession ritual is heavily rigged in favor of males so that only males would win and no females would ever win? First step: Watch Black Panther first before commenting again on this thread. Second Step: Make sure you understand what "heavily rigged in favor of" means as you clearly have no idea about what you're talking about. The succession ritual is not rigged in any way.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 7, 2018 23:25:31 GMT
No. Still doesn't make their succession system biased. Their system treats their men and women the same and gives them the same opportunity. That's the complete opposite of being biased. I don't see how you can say its not biased. If women and men could compete for the same gold medal at Olympic wrestling, then men would have a clear advantage. Its biased in favour of male athletes. Men and women have equal opportunity to compete against each other but the natural biology of one is superior to the other in physical activities so it isnt fair. The word you're looking for is not "biased". Biased implies that there's an unfair prejudice shown either for or against someone/something. Making a rule where everyone is treated equally is the exact opposite of what biased means. If a certain group of people end up having an advantage due to their physical characteristics, that's not bias. It's like saying basketball is biased against southeast asians because they're not tall, or that ballet is biased against men because they're not as flexible as women or that the 50m dash is biased against heavily muscled people. It is simply an advantage that some people have more than others but there is no inherent prejudice in it and thus is not considered bias.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Nov 8, 2018 0:15:51 GMT
This is really needless nitpicking. Maybe there are rules that limit the amount of challenges in a given time. Maybe you can ask for a detailed Wakandan handbook or something. T'Challa's mother and sister went to M'Baku to try to get him to challenge Killmonger for the throne so clearly another challenge for the throne was allowed. Just not allowed for women to challenge for the throne. Why didn't anyone (regardless of gender) challenge Killmonger after throwing T'Challa over the waterfall? You could easily say the men were too scared as well. Why single out women as being demeaned? Because T'Challa's mother and sister tried to get M'Baku to challenge Killmonger for the throne. Why didn't they try to get 1 of the female warriors to challenge Killmonger for the throne. Did they think all those supposedly well-trained female warriors weren't skilled enough to defeat Killmonger in combat? Or was it simply because women aren't allowed to challenge for the throne in Wakanda? Either way, it devalues women. The film clearly established that women ARE allowed to rule if they choose to challenge for the throne No, the film clearly establishes that women either aren't skilled enough to challenge for the throne or aren't allowed to challenge for the throne.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Nov 8, 2018 0:19:22 GMT
I don't see how you can say its not biased. If women and men could compete for the same gold medal at Olympic wrestling, then men would have a clear advantage. Its biased in favour of male athletes. Men and women have equal opportunity to compete against each other but the natural biology of one is superior to the other in physical activities so it isnt fair. The word you're looking for is not "biased". Biased implies that there's an unfair prejudice shown either for or against someone/something. Making a rule where everyone is treated equally is the exact opposite of what biased means. If a certain group of people end up having an advantage due to their physical characteristics, that's not bias. It's like saying basketball is biased against southeast asians because they're not tall, or that ballet is biased against men because they're not as flexible as women or that the 50m dash is biased against heavily muscled people. It is simply an advantage that some people have more than others but there is no inherent prejudice in it and thus is not considered bias. It is biased because it's heavily rigged to favor 1 specific group, in this case males. In your example of the 50m dash, it is biased in favor of males. Name me 1 female in the world who could beat Usain Bolt in a 50m dash. Tell me again how that would be a fair race.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 1:24:31 GMT
The word you're looking for is not "biased". Biased implies that there's an unfair prejudice shown either for or against someone/something. Making a rule where everyone is treated equally is the exact opposite of what biased means. If a certain group of people end up having an advantage due to their physical characteristics, that's not bias. It's like saying basketball is biased against southeast asians because they're not tall, or that ballet is biased against men because they're not as flexible as women or that the 50m dash is biased against heavily muscled people. It is simply an advantage that some people have more than others but there is no inherent prejudice in it and thus is not considered bias. It is biased because it's heavily rigged to favor 1 specific group, in this case males. In your example of the 50m dash, it is biased in favor of males. Name me 1 female in the world who could beat Usain Bolt in a 50m dash. Tell me again how that would be a fair race. 1. You still don't know what "rigged" means in this context. 2. Repeating yourself does not make it right, especially when you refuse to learn what "rigged in favor of" means. 3. You obviously didn't understand my example regarding the 50m dash. Survival of the fittest is one of the oldest, most un-rigged and unbiased forms of competition in nature. Why do you insist on making yourself look stupid?
|
|
|
Post by blockbusted on Nov 8, 2018 1:26:11 GMT
No, the female warriors all obeyed Killmonger's commands during Killmonger's reign. Really, they didn't go against Killmonger? Then what does this look like? And again, does he even realize that it was the entire Dora Milaje who turned against Killmonger when it became obvious that he practically flushed his entire legitimacy as the King of Wakanda down the toilet?
|
|
Surly
Sophomore
@surly
Posts: 913
Likes: 784
|
Post by Surly on Nov 8, 2018 1:28:30 GMT
It's already well-known that MCU hasn't made a female-led movie in 10 years and 20 movies and is only making Captain Marvel as a reaction to WB announcing a Wonder Woman movie so I won't rehash that. But looking at MCU's movies so far, it sure seems that MCU likes to devalue and sometimes even demean female characters. For example, Tony Stark, who is known for being a playboy and sleeping with many different women, sleeps with a female reporter and then the female reporter is referred to as "Trash". That's really demeaning to women. Too bad Bruce Wayne isn't a billionaire playboy. Derp! He is! It was another woman who called the female reporter "trash". And Pepper called her that after the reporter made demeaning insults to her. Not exactly a misogynistic crack at women in general like you say. Last time I checked men and children are also subservient to a king. Why aren't you saying that is demeaning? Yes Wakandan men in the movie were also subservient to T'Challa. Where was that said in the movie? When T'Challa saw his father, the former king, in his ancestral dream he was surrounded by apparent past rulers. Some of them were women. When it was asked if anyone wanted to challenge T'Challa for the throne Nokia was the representative of her tribe. So that means she could/would be queen if she challenged and won. Nope. Wrong pal. scabab , Skaathar and others already covered this stuff.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Nov 8, 2018 2:22:56 GMT
does he even realize that it was the entire Dora Milaje who turned against Killmonger when it became obvious that he practically flushed his entire legitimacy as the King of Wakanda down the toilet? Do you even realize that the female warriors obeyed Killmonger's commands and only turned against Killmonger when they saw that T'Challa was still alive? So basically, all of those supposedly well-trained female warriors were all so scared of Killmonger that they just obeyed his commands and wouldn't stand up to Killmonger and needed a male to lead them to overthrow Killmonger. 1 MCU fan claims that Black Panther put women in positions of power. But the truth is that those female warriors in Black Panther were nothing more than just pawns used by and manipulated by the men. Black Panther really belittles and devalues women.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Nov 8, 2018 2:34:32 GMT
It was another woman who called the female reporter "trash". And that confirms what I said before. In an MCU movie, Tony Stark sleeps with a female reporter and that female reporter is referred to as "Trash". Your bringing up Bruce Wayne is completely irrelevant so no DECU movie refers to women as "Trash". Last time I checked men and children are also subservient to a king. Why aren't you saying that is demeaning? Because 1 MCU fan tried to build up Black Panther by claiming that it had women in power. So I debunked that claim by pointing out that the women in Black Panther weren't in power but were just pawns subservient to a King and taking orders from a King. Where was that said in the movie? It was shown in the movie by the fact that not a single female warrior stepped forward to challenge Killmonger for the throne after Killmonger threw T'Challa over the edge of a waterfall and claimed the throne and everyone thought T'Challa was dead. Even T'Challa's own mother and sister tried to get M'Baku (who lost in combat to T'Challa, who was thrown over the edge of the waterfall by Killmonger) to challenge Killmonger for the throne rather than trying to get 1 of the female warriors to challenge Killmonger for the throne. okia was the representative of her tribe. So that means she could/would be queen if she challenged and won. Did she ever challenge for the throne? No, because while she was allowed to be present to witness the challenge, she wasn't allowed to challenge for the throne because women aren't allowed to challenge for the throne, which is why she didn't challenge Killmonger for the throne after Killmonger threw T'Challa over the edge of the waterfall and claimed the throne and everyone thought T'Challa was dead.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Nov 8, 2018 2:45:13 GMT
WOW! Some MCU fans are just really slow at getting things.
I'll try to explain it slowly here:
Killmonger challenges T'Challa for the throne of Wakanda. Killmonger throws a badly-injured T'Challa over the edge of the waterfall. Everyone, including T'Challa's mother and sister, believe that T'Challa is dead. Killmonger claims the throne of Wakanda.
MCU fans claim that I make things up so I'll ask "Does anyone dispute the events I just wrote above?"
OK. Next:
Not a single female warrior challenges Killmonger for the throne. T'Challa's mother and sister ask M'Baku to challenge Killmonger for the throne rather than asking 1 of the female warriors to challenge Killmonger for the throne.
I'll ask again "Does anyone dispute the events I just wrote above?"
OK. Now that we've established that what I've written is facts and truth, let's examine it further. Basically, after Killmonger throws T'Challa over the edge of a waterfall and claims the throne of Wakanda, a bunch of supposedly well-trained female warriors say "None of us well-trained warriors are going to challenge this outsider whom we've never seen before today and who has never been to Wakanda today. Instead, we're just going to obey the commands of this outsider whom we've never seen before today and who has never been to Wakanda."
Either all those supposedly well-trained female warriors were too scared to challenge Killmonger for the throne of Wakanda or Wakanda simply doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule. So which is it? Are the female warriors in Wakanda all cowards or was it because Wakanda simply doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule? Either way, Black Panther belittles and devalues women.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 2:55:16 GMT
WOW! Some MCU fans are just really slow at getting things. I'll try to explain it slowly here: Killmonger challenges T'Challa for the throne of Wakanda. Killmonger throws a badly-injured T'Challa over the edge of the waterfall. Everyone, including T'Challa's mother and sister, believe that T'Challa is dead. Killmonger claims the throne of Wakanda.MCU fans claim that I make things up so I'll ask "Does anyone dispute the events I just wrote above?" OK. Next: Not a single female warrior challenges Killmonger for the throne. T'Challa's mother and sister ask M'Baku to challenge Killmonger for the throne rather than asking 1 of the female warriors to challenge Killmonger for the throne.I'll ask again "Does anyone dispute the events I just wrote above?" OK. Now that we've established that what I've written is facts and truth, let's examine it further. Basically, after Killmonger throws T'Challa over the edge of a waterfall and claims the throne of Wakanda, a bunch of supposedly well-trained female warriors say "None of us well-trained warriors are going to challenge this outsider whom we've never seen before today and who has never been to Wakanda today. Instead, we're just going to obey the commands of this outsider whom we've never seen before today and who has never been to Wakanda." Either all those supposedly well-trained female warriors were too scared to challenge Killmonger for the throne of Wakanda or Wakanda simply doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule. So which is it? Are the female warriors in Wakanda all cowards or was it because Wakanda simply doesn't allow women to challenge for the throne and rule? Either way, Black Panther belittles and devalues women.I can't help but notice you haven't replied to my post. Guess you're great at making random asinine posts but are unable to sustain your stance when faced with a logical argument that easily exposes the stupidity of your posts. Also, when will you ever bother to actually watch BP?
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 8, 2018 4:41:50 GMT
So why didn't they ask 1 of the female warriors to challenge Killmonger for the throne instead of trying to get to a male warrior to challenge Killmonger for the throne? That was explained when T'Challa's sister, Nakia, asked Okoye for help in overthrowing Killmonger, saying how great she was as a warrior and she told her that she was loyal to the throne regardless of who sits on it. The female warriors serve the King, they wouldn't challenge him. That was a military skirmish involving long range weapons where they also had the demi god Wonder Woman on their side.
|
|
|
Post by DC-Fan on Nov 8, 2018 4:49:24 GMT
The female warriors serve the King, they wouldn't challenge him. So rather than challenge for the throne, the female warriors willingly submitted to an outsider who they had never seen before and who had never been in Wakanda before? That's pretty lame. That was a military skirmish involving long range weapons where they also had the demi god Wonder Woman on their side. Diana didn't do much fighting during the beach battle against the German soldiers. It was Hippolyta leading the Amazons into battle.
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 5:08:11 GMT
See? Seems DC-Fan is truly avoiding me. Did you put me on ignore? Or are you simply unable to come up with a logical counter argument?
|
|