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Post by politicidal on Feb 14, 2019 2:42:37 GMT
all u mcu fans saying u agree with me. UM, i usually say the obvious truth. lol In all due seriousness, this is probably the best post you ever made.
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Post by faustus5 on Feb 14, 2019 11:46:00 GMT
This time you made more sense, yes you cannot hold discriminatory beliefs or ideals and not be a bigot, but you can disagree with homosexuality as a I dunno concept and not be a bigot, bigotry requires discrimination and intolerance of something, just being like nah I don't like that and shaking your head if you see a gay couple isn't bigotry, it's stupid as fuck thinking imo but it's not bigotry, the other time you said basically unless you are pro LGBTQ+ you are a bigot which is unfair to say imo, and is itself bigotry because that is having no tolerance for any opinion but your own. Bigotry comes in degrees--you can be a little grossed out by seeing two men kissing, for instance, and that's just a little bit of bigotry. But it still means something is wrong with you, even though it isn't much of a big deal. However, the moment you declare that gays should have anything less than the full human rights and services non gays have, you are a worthless monster. Period.
At any rate, associating yourself with an institution which wants to deny services to gay people is problematic. Pratt's response is completely inadequate.
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Post by dazz on Feb 14, 2019 14:16:52 GMT
This time you made more sense, yes you cannot hold discriminatory beliefs or ideals and not be a bigot, but you can disagree with homosexuality as a I dunno concept and not be a bigot, bigotry requires discrimination and intolerance of something, just being like nah I don't like that and shaking your head if you see a gay couple isn't bigotry, it's stupid as fuck thinking imo but it's not bigotry, the other time you said basically unless you are pro LGBTQ+ you are a bigot which is unfair to say imo, and is itself bigotry because that is having no tolerance for any opinion but your own. Bigotry comes in degrees--you can be a little grossed out by seeing two men kissing, for instance, and that's just a little bit of bigotry. But it still means something is wrong with you, even though it isn't much of a big deal. However, the moment you declare that gays should have anything less than the full human rights and services non gays have, you are a worthless monster. Period.
At any rate, associating yourself with an institution which wants to deny services to gay people is problematic. Pratt's response is completely inadequate.
No bigotry requires intolerance, if you are grossed out but accepting of gay couples and them kissing that's not bigotry, for one it could literally be you don't find the dude part attractive, so you could also feel the same if you see a hetro couple kissing, but be fine with a lesbian couple kissing.
What you are on about is prejudice, so believing being gay isn't right but you have no rational explanation for it you are being prejudice, now there are ways how such thinking historically could be considered valid, but absolutely not today, so imo any anti-lgbtq attitudes these days is prejudice, it isn't necessarily bigotry.
And yes if you believe anyone in the lgbtq community is less deserving of the same rights and treatment as anyone else that is bigotry because that's saying because you aren't like this you don't deserve that and showing an intolerant attitude and behaviour towards those people which is wrong.
As for Pratt's church what is it he is meant to be responding to? the conversion therapy stuff which they stopped doing almost a decade ago, which also from what I read wasn't something they forced on people or brow beat into taking part of, one of the things I read said how someone they suggested the idea to came away from the church but is still positive about them, maybe there are more stories going the opposite way I don't know tbh but is that it? something the church stopped doing in 2011 is something Pratt in 2019 needs to apologise for and explain?
If it is the part where they don't let LGBTQ members participate in the running of aspects of the church maybe he could have said more on that, but who is to say he can, maybe what he said is all he knows, he got divorced which is frowned upon in the bible but the church welcomed him with open arms, he didn't say they then gave him a position in the church, which is the thing they don't allow the LGBTQ members do, but they are welcomed as part of the congregation and allowed to worship their like anyone else, if that discrimination goes across the board to anyone who fails to meet the highest standards set forth by the bible that's not discrimination that's just choosy as fuck.
Comes down to me is there a clear double standard being used to refuse LGBTQ members of the church participating as fully with their church and their faith as the non-LGBTQ members, if their is then that's bullshit and wrong, but so far no ones said or proven this to be the case, it's just pointing this one thing out without full context and making assumptions about it, and whilst I wont be surprised if it turns out there is a double standard in place until I see it I don't feel it's right to condemn Pratt for his choice in church, or the church itself, now if you can point that out or anyone else can then carry on because their behaviour is bullshit, just don't be so quick to throw around poorly chosen labels and judging them without all the facts I guess is my thing, but if it turns out they are being specifically homophobic and Pratt's going along with them then fuck him and fuck that church.
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Post by faustus5 on Feb 14, 2019 14:25:15 GMT
Comes down to me is there a clear double standard being used to refuse LGBTQ members of the church participating as fully with their church and their faith as the non-LGBTQ members, if their is then that's bullshit and wrong, but so far no ones said or proven this to be the case, it's just pointing this one thing out without full context and making assumptions about it, and whilst I wont be surprised if it turns out there is a double standard in place until I see it I don't feel it's right to condemn Pratt for his choice in church, or the church itself, now if you can point that out or anyone else can then carry on because their behaviour is bullshit, just don't be so quick to throw around poorly chosen labels and judging them without all the facts I guess is my thing, but if it turns out they are being specifically homophobic and Pratt's going along with them then fuck him and fuck that church.
The church's leaders have publicly declared they are against gay people marrying each other. Case closed--they are bigots and Pratt should distance himself from them.
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 14, 2019 14:33:32 GMT
Um....Muslims have MURDERED in the name of their religion all over the world. Easily the worst of all current religions. You'd have a point if there were any anti-gay Muslims in the USA who had political and cultural power or influence that was even remotely comparable to that of Christians. Or were Hollywood actors. (In fact, the only Muslim politicians in American that I know of are totally pro-LGBT rights.)
Context is everything. We're talking about a North American institution with gay rights advocates criticizing others who work within that institution, not world events generally. Smart advocacy picks its enemies wisely and spends most of its energy against them, and in the movie business, the bad guys on this issue are overwhelmingly Christian.
Perhaps you didn't hear, but a bunch of them flew into some buildings several years ago. I hear some people even died too.
No? Look up the Boston bombing, John Allen Mohammed, 2000 New York terror attack, failed shoe bomber, the failed bombings in Culver City, California, or Fort Hood. I'm only looking at the ones from the year 2000 forward too.But yeah, Chris Pratt is the problem here.
Fuck outta here with your "only North American ones count".
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cricket
Sophomore
@cricket
Posts: 339
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Post by cricket on Feb 14, 2019 14:48:47 GMT
all u mcu fans saying u agree with me. UM, i usually say the obvious truth. lol Ha, ha, ha... Nice joke, but nope...
You know, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Now, you already hit one this year, so let's wait on which month will be your second and final of 2019. I would like to see it live...
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Post by faustus5 on Feb 14, 2019 14:58:52 GMT
Perhaps you didn't hear, but a bunch of them flew into some buildings several years ago. I hear some people even died too.
No? Look up the Boston bombing, John Allen Mohammed, 2000 New York terror attack, failed shoe bomber, the failed bombings in Culver City, California, or Fort Hood. I'm only looking at the ones from the year 2000 forward too.But yeah, Chris Pratt is the problem here.
Fuck outta here with your "only North American ones count".
Acts of violence by lone Muslims have absolutely no impact on social and political policies regarding LGBT rights in the United States. Thinking rationally isn't really one of your skills, is it? Christians who openly advocate for theocracy get invited to the White House, get appointed or elected to powerful positions, actively fight against gay rights and women's rights, and try to get pseudoscience taught in public schools. No Muslims are doing any such thing in America, and in fact, the only Muslims elected to significant public offices are allies of the LGBT community. If you support gay rights in America, there aren't any Muslims standing in your way to any significant degree--but there are plenty of Christians. Can you name so much as one anti-LGBT Muslim working in Hollywood that Ellen Page could have spent some time tweeting criticisms at? Until you can, go fuck yourself.
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 14, 2019 15:20:11 GMT
Perhaps you didn't hear, but a bunch of them flew into some buildings several years ago. I hear some people even died too.
No? Look up the Boston bombing, John Allen Mohammed, 2000 New York terror attack, failed shoe bomber, the failed bombings in Culver City, California, or Fort Hood. I'm only looking at the ones from the year 2000 forward too.But yeah, Chris Pratt is the problem here.
Fuck outta here with your "only North American ones count".
Acts of violence by lone Muslims have absolutely no impact on social and political policies regarding LGBT rights in the United States. Thinking rationally isn't really one of your skills, is it? Christians who openly advocate for theocracy get invited to the White House, get appointed or elected to powerful positions, actively fight against gay rights and women's rights, and try to get pseudoscience taught in public schools. No Muslims are doing any such thing in America, and in fact, the only Muslims elected to significant public offices are allies of the LGBT community. If you support gay rights in America, there aren't any Muslims standing in your way to any significant degree--but there are plenty of Christians. Can you name so much as one anti-LGBT Muslim working in Hollywood that Ellen Page could have spent some time tweeting criticisms at? Until you can, go fuck yourself. No impact, LOL. Their actions only kill people.
*Cough cough* Omar Mateen *cough cough*says hello.
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Post by faustus5 on Feb 14, 2019 15:34:32 GMT
No impact, LOL. Their actions only kill people.
*Cough cough* Omar Mateen *cough cough*says hello. Please articulate !. How their actions had an effect on public policy and cultural attitudes towards gay rights; and, most importantly: 2. Demonstrate how these effects were more impactful to gay rights than the actions of Christian politicians and pundits acting against gay rights. Good luck with your homework assignment. You know you are going to fail--miserably.
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 14, 2019 15:52:04 GMT
No impact, LOL. Their actions only kill people.
*Cough cough* Omar Mateen *cough cough*says hello. Please articulate !. How their actions had an effect on public policy and cultural attitudes towards gay rights; and, most importantly: 2. Demonstrate how these effects were more impactful to gay rights than the actions of Christian politicians and pundits acting against gay rights. Good luck with your homework assignment. You know you are going to fail--miserably. They lost their lives, you asshole.
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Post by dazz on Feb 14, 2019 16:08:11 GMT
Comes down to me is there a clear double standard being used to refuse LGBTQ members of the church participating as fully with their church and their faith as the non-LGBTQ members, if their is then that's bullshit and wrong, but so far no ones said or proven this to be the case, it's just pointing this one thing out without full context and making assumptions about it, and whilst I wont be surprised if it turns out there is a double standard in place until I see it I don't feel it's right to condemn Pratt for his choice in church, or the church itself, now if you can point that out or anyone else can then carry on because their behaviour is bullshit, just don't be so quick to throw around poorly chosen labels and judging them without all the facts I guess is my thing, but if it turns out they are being specifically homophobic and Pratt's going along with them then fuck him and fuck that church.
The church's leaders have publicly declared they are against gay people marrying each other. Case closed--they are bigots and Pratt should distance himself from them. Ok then that's fair enough and a imo idiotic viewpoint these days, well anytime really, but to me the best thing Pratt could do is remain at the church preach their positive aspects and slam them for their bullshit ones, be a voice of change within the church not outside of it, but yeah he should distance himself, from that idea and attitude of same sex marriage not being accepted, not the church as a whole just because of that, unless he speaks for change and is told shut up or get out at which point yeah leg it the fuck out of there these cunts wont change.
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Post by faustus5 on Feb 14, 2019 16:10:48 GMT
Please articulate !. How their actions had an effect on public policy and cultural attitudes towards gay rights; and, most importantly: 2. Demonstrate how these effects were more impactful to gay rights than the actions of Christian politicians and pundits acting against gay rights. Good luck with your homework assignment. You know you are going to fail--miserably. They lost their lives, you asshole. In other words, the acts of Muslim terrorists have no bearing whatsoever on the struggle for gay rights, but the acts of Christian pundits and politicians do. Therefore, if you have any intelligence at all, you will direct your activism towards the Christians who are getting in the way of gay rights, seeing as Muslims aren't having even the slightest effect on government policy or social mores. Thanks for the opportunity to hand you your dumb ass.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 14, 2019 17:21:11 GMT
The church's leaders have publicly declared they are against gay people marrying each other. Case closed--they are bigots and Pratt should distance himself from them. Ok then that's fair enough and a imo idiotic viewpoint these days, well anytime really, but to me the best thing Pratt could do is remain at the church preach their positive aspects and slam them for their bullshit ones, be a voice of change within the church not outside of it, but yeah he should distance himself, from that idea and attitude of same sex marriage not being accepted, not the church as a whole just because of that, unless he speaks for change and is told shut up or get out at which point yeah leg it the fuck out of there these WAFFLEs wont change.
I'd be cautious about trusting what faustus says regarding the hillsong church and what they said or didn't say. In this thread alone he's already misrepresented and strawmanned my posts, so it's entirely possible he's taking what the hillsong church said out of context. Personally, I'd do my own research first before passing judgement on Pratt and the church.
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Post by faustus5 on Feb 14, 2019 17:44:03 GMT
In this thread alone he's already misrepresented and strawmanned my posts, so it's entirely possible he's taking what the hillsong church said out of context. Utter and complete bullshit. Your posts have been entirely consistent with the idea that religious beliefs deserve special respect we do not grant to ideas that are not religious. If you can't express what you really think without seeming to endorse this notion, you are just incompetent at explaining what you believe. I gave you an opportunity to clarify what you position really is, and instead of doing so you ignored my reply. As for what the Hillsong church really believes, here are the bigot's own words. Suck on this: hillsong.com/collected/blog/2015/08/do-i-love-gay-people/#.XGWk9KJKg9A
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Post by dazz on Feb 14, 2019 17:55:41 GMT
Ok then that's fair enough and a imo idiotic viewpoint these days, well anytime really, but to me the best thing Pratt could do is remain at the church preach their positive aspects and slam them for their bullshit ones, be a voice of change within the church not outside of it, but yeah he should distance himself, from that idea and attitude of same sex marriage not being accepted, not the church as a whole just because of that, unless he speaks for change and is told shut up or get out at which point yeah leg it the fuck out of there these WAFFLEs wont change.
I'd be cautious about trusting what faustus says regarding the hillsong church and what they said or didn't say. In this thread alone he's already misrepresented and strawmanned my posts, so it's entirely possible he's taking what the hillsong church said out of context. Personally, I'd do my own research first before passing judgement on Pratt and the church. Also a fair point, but I do think I read something about them also but how long ago that was and who made it I forgot.
I still think if the church does have archaic ideas about marriage and such the best way to improve things isn't for people like Pratt to distance themselves from the church itself but those ideas in trying to bring about a positive change, good people distancing themselves from not so good people just divides people even more, into the group of "good" thinkers and the "bad" thinkers, the mixture of both however can lead to both sides growing and improving because "good" people still have bullshit fucking attitudes and ideas such as the rampant us vs them attitude, we all can stand to improve not just everyone else.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 14, 2019 18:04:49 GMT
I'd be cautious about trusting what faustus says regarding the hillsong church and what they said or didn't say. In this thread alone he's already misrepresented and strawmanned my posts, so it's entirely possible he's taking what the hillsong church said out of context. Personally, I'd do my own research first before passing judgement on Pratt and the church. Also a fair point, but I do think I read something about them also but how long ago that was and who made it I forgot.
I still think if the church does have archaic ideas about marriage and such the best way to improve things isn't for people like Pratt to distance themselves from the church itself but those ideas in trying to bring about a positive change, good people distancing themselves from not so good people just divides people even more, into the group of "good" thinkers and the "bad" thinkers, the mixture of both however can lead to both sides growing and improving because "good" people still have bullshit fucking attitudes and ideas such as the rampant us vs them attitude, we all can stand to improve not just everyone else.
Don't take my word for it, he just finished posting a link to what the church leader said. I'll leave it up to you to determine whether he was taking things out of context. Personally, I feel that he's exaggerating what the church leader said to make it seem more sinister than it is. Anyway, I think the biggest culprit here is intolerance and the idea that some people think they're such morally superior to others that they have the right to enforce their beliefs on others who don't believe as they do. But this goes both ways, or even better "all ways". The enemy isn't religion or religious people, neither is it homosexuality/gender fluidity or LGBTQ people. The enemy are those who choose to attack other people just because they have different beliefs, and these people exist on both sides. And yes, I agree that the us vs. them mentality is not going to help anyone.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 28, 2019 14:18:31 GMT
Would this oh-so-wonderful church "step up" and let a gay couple get married? Or are gay members second class citizens? Hmmm? Why do you hate gay people?
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 28, 2019 15:09:51 GMT
Ok then that's fair enough and a imo idiotic viewpoint these days, well anytime really, but to me the best thing Pratt could do is remain at the church preach their positive aspects and slam them for their bullshit ones, be a voice of change within the church not outside of it, but yeah he should distance himself, from that idea and attitude of same sex marriage not being accepted, not the church as a whole just because of that, unless he speaks for change and is told shut up or get out at which point yeah leg it the fuck out of there these WAFFLEs wont change.
I'd be cautious about trusting what faustus says regarding the hillsong church and what they said or didn't say. In this thread alone he's already misrepresented and strawmanned my posts, so it's entirely possible he's taking what the hillsong church said out of context. Personally, I'd do my own research first before passing judgement on Pratt and the church. I don't trust anything faustus says. He's a very angry and biased man.
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 28, 2019 15:11:05 GMT
I'm not religious at all, but I side with him on this issue. He's a genuinely nice guy who's involved with a variety of charity work. She's a seemingly miserable human being who never smiles and only get involved with the causes that relate directly to her (like LGBT issues). She's the one who called him out out of the blue. His response has been nothing but pure class.
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Post by politicidal on Feb 28, 2019 15:57:28 GMT
I'm not religious at all, but I side with him on this issue. He's a genuinely nice guy who's involved with a variety of charity work. She's a seemingly miserable human being who never smiles and only get involved with the causes that relate directly to her (like LGBT issues). She's the one who called him out out of the blue. His response has been nothing but pure class. I've been disappointed in her behavior and once considered Ellen Page above this sort of thing. But people change I suppose.
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