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Post by Skaathar on Apr 30, 2019 15:36:25 GMT
I thought that Thanos was not so tough without the stones. Why is it that it takes Thor and Cap and Iron Man to all take him down even when he didn’t have the stones? I thought that Thor alone could fuck him up easily. The Russo’s said Thor got Thanos with the axe at the end of IW because it was a surprise attack, Thanks uses the stones poorly out of reflex and not in a premeditated manner. Thanos cleaned Hulk pretty easily without any stones (he wasn’t actively using the power stone at the time). So Thanos with a strong weapon defeating overweight Thor, retired Captain America and 55 year old iron man wasn’t beyond the realm of believability. Still didn't make sense how IM put up a better fight against 4-stone Thanos than stoneless Thanos. And despite Thor being overweight, that doesn't explain why he never blasted Thanos with lightning or did his ground slam and stuff. Heck in IW he was smashing through ships the same way CM was doing here yet he never does any of that.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Apr 30, 2019 15:37:21 GMT
Thanos even without the stones is one of the most powerful beings in the universe. It's always been that way.
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Post by hobowar on Apr 30, 2019 19:02:38 GMT
Captain Marvel, Hulk, Drax and Iron Man should have grabbed one of Thanos' limbs while Thor went for the head or balls.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 30, 2019 19:07:52 GMT
The Russo’s said Thor got Thanos with the axe at the end of IW because it was a surprise attack, Thanks uses the stones poorly out of reflex and not in a premeditated manner. Thanos cleaned Hulk pretty easily without any stones (he wasn’t actively using the power stone at the time). So Thanos with a strong weapon defeating overweight Thor, retired Captain America and 55 year old iron man wasn’t beyond the realm of believability. Still didn't make sense how IM put up a better fight against 4-stone Thanos than stoneless Thanos. And despite Thor being overweight, that doesn't explain why he never blasted Thanos with lightning or did his ground slam and stuff. Heck in IW he was smashing through ships the same way CM was doing here yet he never does any of that. Yet nobody ever complained he was overpowered or how they weren't sure what kind of stories you could tell with the character.
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Post by Skaathar on Apr 30, 2019 19:38:36 GMT
Still didn't make sense how IM put up a better fight against 4-stone Thanos than stoneless Thanos. And despite Thor being overweight, that doesn't explain why he never blasted Thanos with lightning or did his ground slam and stuff. Heck in IW he was smashing through ships the same way CM was doing here yet he never does any of that. Yet nobody ever complained he was overpowered or how they weren't sure what kind of stories you could tell with the character. Because Thor slowly earned that power throughout multiple films. Acquiring that much power was part of his story arc. Had he already been that powerful in the first Avengers film people would have complained just as much. And yes, one would have to wonder how they would have proceeded to tell his story in future movies. So... big difference between Thor and CM there.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 30, 2019 19:53:56 GMT
Yet nobody ever complained he was overpowered or how they weren't sure what kind of stories you could tell with the character. Because Thor slowly earned that power throughout multiple films. Acquiring that much power was part of his story arc. Had he already been that powerful in the first Avengers film people would have complained just as much. And yes, one would have to wonder how they would have proceeded to tell his story in future movies. So... big difference between Thor and CM there. The complaints that she hasn't 'earned her place' as an alpha are valid. The idea that she's overpowered is false. People didn't say Thor was overpowered in IW, nor did they question what the storytelling possibilities were after IW. They simply accepted he was that powerful. Captain Marvel is treated as so overpowered she's impossible to write around, but nobody ever said that about Thor. The hows and whys about their origin is irrelevant; the fact remains that Thor was never considered overpowered while Captain Marvel was, despite her showcasing equal or lesser (as opposed to greater) feats.
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Post by Skaathar on Apr 30, 2019 20:32:00 GMT
Because Thor slowly earned that power throughout multiple films. Acquiring that much power was part of his story arc. Had he already been that powerful in the first Avengers film people would have complained just as much. And yes, one would have to wonder how they would have proceeded to tell his story in future movies. So... big difference between Thor and CM there. The complaints that she hasn't 'earned her place' as an alpha are valid. The idea that she's overpowered is false. People didn't say Thor was overpowered in IW, nor did they question what the storytelling possibilities were after IW. They simply accepted he was that powerful. Captain Marvel is treated as so overpowered she's impossible to write around, but nobody ever said that about Thor. The hows and whys about their origin is irrelevant; the fact remains that Thor was never considered overpowered while Captain Marvel was, despite her showcasing equal or lesser (as opposed to greater) feats. Earning her place as an alpha is a different topic altogether. One where we would talk about earning the respect to be a leader. Right now we're discussing power levels, and I'm saying she gets called OP because she her initial power levels were already roughly equal to Thor's final power levels. Like I said, Thor wasn't always that powerful. He had to work for that power, that makes people more sympathetic to it. That's why underdogs almost never get called overpowered even when they get a ridiculous power bump at the end of their storyarc. Captain Marvel achieved that power at the very beginning of her storyline. She didn't even really need to work for it, not with the same difficulty Thor had to work for his anyway. So yes, CM is overpowered, because she's already this powerful at the beginning of her story. Because her powers during their infancy are around the same level as Thor's highest levels of power. It's like comparing two extremely jacked bodybuilders, one of whom achieved his physique after 8 years of hard gym work whereas the other one only started going to the gym 3 months ago. Despite both of them having very similar physiques, only one of them will probably be scorned by the public as a 'roid user.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 30, 2019 22:54:36 GMT
The complaints that she hasn't 'earned her place' as an alpha are valid. The idea that she's overpowered is false. People didn't say Thor was overpowered in IW, nor did they question what the storytelling possibilities were after IW. They simply accepted he was that powerful. Captain Marvel is treated as so overpowered she's impossible to write around, but nobody ever said that about Thor. The hows and whys about their origin is irrelevant; the fact remains that Thor was never considered overpowered while Captain Marvel was, despite her showcasing equal or lesser (as opposed to greater) feats. Earning her place as an alpha is a different topic altogether. One where we would talk about earning the respect to be a leader. Right now we're discussing power levels, and I'm saying she gets called OP because she her initial power levels were already roughly equal to Thor's final power levels. Like I said, Thor wasn't always that powerful. He had to work for that power, that makes people more sympathetic to it. That's why underdogs almost never get called overpowered even when they get a ridiculous power bump at the end of their storyarc. Captain Marvel achieved that power at the very beginning of her storyline. She didn't even really need to work for it, not with the same difficulty Thor had to work for his anyway. So yes, CM is overpowered, because she's already this powerful at the beginning of her story. Because her powers during their infancy are around the same level as Thor's highest levels of power. It's like comparing two extremely jacked bodybuilders, one of whom achieved his physique after 8 years of hard gym work whereas the other one only started going to the gym 3 months ago. Despite both of them having very similar physiques, only one of them will probably be scorned by the public as a 'roid user. The hero's journey is a separate topic. Agreed 100% that people (myself included) appreciate characters who have a compelling character arc where they earn their place. That's why we like the other characters more; we've been with them on the journey. But we're talking about powers here. The backstory is irrelevant. Nobody complained about Hulk one-shotting a space whale in the first Avengers flick. Nobody said you can't tell anymore Hulk stories because he's too powerful. This is what people are saying about Captain Marvel.
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Post by Skaathar on May 1, 2019 0:01:14 GMT
Earning her place as an alpha is a different topic altogether. One where we would talk about earning the respect to be a leader. Right now we're discussing power levels, and I'm saying she gets called OP because she her initial power levels were already roughly equal to Thor's final power levels. Like I said, Thor wasn't always that powerful. He had to work for that power, that makes people more sympathetic to it. That's why underdogs almost never get called overpowered even when they get a ridiculous power bump at the end of their storyarc. Captain Marvel achieved that power at the very beginning of her storyline. She didn't even really need to work for it, not with the same difficulty Thor had to work for his anyway. So yes, CM is overpowered, because she's already this powerful at the beginning of her story. Because her powers during their infancy are around the same level as Thor's highest levels of power. It's like comparing two extremely jacked bodybuilders, one of whom achieved his physique after 8 years of hard gym work whereas the other one only started going to the gym 3 months ago. Despite both of them having very similar physiques, only one of them will probably be scorned by the public as a 'roid user. The hero's journey is a separate topic. Agreed 100% that people (myself included) appreciate characters who have a compelling character arc where they earn their place. That's why we like the other characters more; we've been with them on the journey. But we're talking about powers here. The backstory is irrelevant. Nobody complained about Hulk one-shotting a space whale in the first Avengers flick. Nobody said you can't tell anymore Hulk stories because he's too powerful. This is what people are saying about Captain Marvel. I have to disagree. Backstory and explanation of said powers is important. This are people's perceptions we're talking about, and explanations always sway a person's perception. I mean, if two people became millionaires with one earning his money from scratch while the other was just given the money by his parents... do you think people will respect them equally just because they have equal money? Just like the bodybuilder example I gave: both have very similar physiques yet only one of them will face scorn. Why? Because his backstory doesn't match his current physique. Thor and CM might have similar power levels but there's a big difference in how they got to that point, and that explanation will heavily influence how people react to them. As for Hulk, it's not even comparable. One-shotting one leviathan out of many while working together with the rest of the Avengers to curb the Chitauri invasion is nowhere near as impressive as Danvers singlehandedly defeating the Kree invasion force. Hulk also got in trouble with the Chitauri and was pinned down and getting pummeled.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on May 1, 2019 0:12:12 GMT
I just thought of something.
The Ancient One never said there weren’t ALREADY multiverses. She just said that her reality would be affected if they took the stones out of that particular timeline.
So there are probably already a bunch of alternate timelines and universes.
Especially when you consider season 5 of Agents of SHIELD.
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Post by scabab on May 1, 2019 11:13:59 GMT
Thanos even without the stones is one of the most powerful beings in the universe. It's always been that way. Yeah Korath said he was the most powerful in the universe in Guardians of the Galaxy. I don't believe that's true when you have things like Dormammu and Ego about but as far as humanoid beings that can throw a punch...yeah hes up there. Still didn't make sense how IM put up a better fight against 4-stone Thanos than stoneless Thanos. Well Thanos only used one stone against him which was the power stone. He didn't have that in Endgame but there he did have that blade which apparently was tough enough to cut vibranium.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on May 1, 2019 12:18:48 GMT
The hero's journey is a separate topic. Agreed 100% that people (myself included) appreciate characters who have a compelling character arc where they earn their place. That's why we like the other characters more; we've been with them on the journey. But we're talking about powers here. The backstory is irrelevant. Nobody complained about Hulk one-shotting a space whale in the first Avengers flick. Nobody said you can't tell anymore Hulk stories because he's too powerful. This is what people are saying about Captain Marvel. I have to disagree. Backstory and explanation of said powers is important. This are people's perceptions we're talking about, and explanations always sway a person's perception. I mean, if two people became millionaires with one earning his money from scratch while the other was just given the money by his parents... do you think people will respect them equally just because they have equal money? Just like the bodybuilder example I gave: both have very similar physiques yet only one of them will face scorn. Why? Because his backstory doesn't match his current physique. Thor and CM might have similar power levels but there's a big difference in how they got to that point, and that explanation will heavily influence how people react to them. As for Hulk, it's not even comparable. One-shotting one leviathan out of many while working together with the rest of the Avengers to curb the Chitauri invasion is nowhere near as impressive as Danvers singlehandedly defeating the Kree invasion force. Hulk also got in trouble with the Chitauri and was pinned down and getting pummeled. She blew up one ship. The rest retreated, with Ronan saying they'd come back for the woman. Apparently he didn't think the Kree had no answer for her, how overpowered can she be? (And from everything else we already know about the MCU, with her film being a prequel, she doesn't single handedly take out the Kree because they're still around.) I know where you're coming from, I'm a comic fan. I used to hate it when some rando was thrown in there and the writers told you he was more powerful than everyone else. I was one of the people on this board who raised concerns over Feige's 'she's the strongest hero by far' comments before her film even came out. But it seems at least to me that the complaints aren't about the hero's journey (you being the exception, because you're a level headed fan) but rather that she's overpowered, period. On my second viewing, some dude in my theater immediately said, "This character is broken! She's too overpowered," as the credits rolled. He didn't say she didn't earn it, it was too easy for her, there wasn't enough sacrifice (all of which would be my complaints if I had them); he simply said she was too powerful, period. Thor earned every bit of his powers through what, six movies? Yet he was insanely powerful by the end of IW. He singlehandedly overpowered the gauntlet. Not one person said, "Well I don't know what kind of story you can tell with him now, he's broken." Captain Marvel blows up a single attack cruiser and she's broken. I'm with you 100% on the writers taking shortcuts with her story (which apparently wasn't even written by the time this movie was filmed, which is just insane!), she doesn't have the same appeal because she hasn't gone through what the other heroes have in our eyes. No argument there whatsoever, and that stuff does matter to fans and it should. My only issue with some people (again, not you) are the ones who simply say she's too powerful, making storytelling impossible. She blew up a ship. I like our conversations, skaathar. I often think we're on the same page, we're just on different paragraphs. It's like we both want to grab the other by the shoulders and say, "Why aren't you listening to me?!" I don't disagree with anything you said in this post; at the end of the day I don't agree with those who say CM is overpowered because I don't think she's as powerful as Thor.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on May 1, 2019 14:16:59 GMT
Here's my 2 cents. Strictly talking about the MCU, not the comics. Captain Marvel is not included in this because we haven't seen enough of her interaction with the others yet. If you watch all the movies you could come to the following conclusion. All the MCU superheroes are roughly equal in power when you take into account all of their powers, abilities, skills and weapons. Starting with the Avengers; Thor and Iron Man had a short fight with no clear winner Thor was knocked on his ass when he hit Captain America's shield Thor and Hulk had a pretty even fight Hulk buster Iron Man more or less beat Hulk Scarlett Witch took out all of the Avengers except Hawkeye who beat her by being smarter and faster Cap kicked Quicksilver's ass by using his brain.
Cap and Winter Soldier are an even match At the airport fight, no one was able to dominate others. Cap found a way to take down Spider-Man. Ant-Man gave Iron Man a great deal of trouble. Spider-Man took down Giant Man. Black Panther beat Hawkeye but again it isn't like a 1 punch thing. Falcon took out Spider-Man using his falcon drone thing. Scarlett Witch beat Vision. In Ragnarok, again Thor and Hulk were about even. When Hawkeye and Black Widow fought it was even. It took both Cap and Winter Soldier to take down Iron Man in Civil War but he wasn't overwhelming in the 1 on 1 fights. Warmachine is pretty much identical to Iron Man.
Anyway, you see where I'm going here. Each of them have strengths and weaknesses and the others can leverage those differences to make it a fair fight. So just like always in superhero stories, the writing is very uneven and flexible when it comes to powers.
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