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Post by damngumby on Jul 22, 2019 1:13:44 GMT
That's because you're dead wrong. Superheroes, by their nature, transcend conventional law enforcement. They are the ultimate vigilantes. No one controls Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain America, Ironman ... etc. They follow their own code of justice. When it is good, they are heroes, when it turns bad, they become villains. Wrong again. The Justice League don't have their own justice system. Even the Justice League makes it's own decisions and acts on it's own accord when it deems it necessary. No one wants a bunch of neutered superheroes waiting for permission from the city council before springing into action. Christ, didn't you learn anything from The Incredibles? We want our superheroes rough around the edges, conflicted, sometimes wrong, but ultimately they do the right thing, not because someone told them to do it, but because they know it is the right thing to do. You want your superheroes straight out of the Saturday morning cartoons. Simplistic, one dimensional, duddly do rights. I'm sure there is a Saturday morning cartoon board around here somewhere ... where your childish views might be more accepted.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 22, 2019 3:26:19 GMT
Wrong again. The Justice League don't have their own justice system. We want our superheroes rough around the edges, conflicted, sometimes wrong, but ultimately they do the right thing, not because someone told them to do it, but because they know it is the right thing to do. You've just demonstrated why MCU's so-called "heroes" aren't true heroes and you've also demonstrated why so many MCU fans are incapable to understanding what a true hero is. Because you claim that Steve Rogers should be allowed to ignore democracy and do whatever he wants ad not respect the authority of the people because he knows he's doing the right thing. Well, in Vulture's point-of-view, he knew he was doing the right thing providing for his family. In Quentin Beck's point-of-view, he knew he was doing the right thing getting restitution for all the former Stark employees who were screwed over by Tony Stark. So when you claim that Steve Rogers should be allowed to just ignore democracy and do whatever he wants and not respect the authority of the people, then you're also claiming that Vulture and Quentin Beck and every other person with powers should be allowed to just ignore democracy and do whatever they want and not respect the authority of the people.
MCU's so-called "heroes' are basically anti-truth, anti-justice, and anti-democracy and are pro-tyranny.
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Post by dazz on Jul 22, 2019 3:34:29 GMT
I don’t understand the negative reaction either. Not only did he fail to defeat the most powerful being he and his friends ever had to face, but he lost his whole family and people before that. Of course he’s gonna end up being depressed and would reduce to drinking and playing Fortnite. Sorry. Superheroes are not interchangeable lego bricks. Each has an identity. What the Russos did to Thor was Tony Stark's thing, not Thor's thing. Thor would not turn into Volstag who in less than a day downed 4 wild boar, 6 phesants, a side of beef & 2 casks of ale without affecting his waistline (meaning a dozen cans of cheese whiz wouldnt do crap to Thor's weight) Why kill The Warriors Three in Ragnarok if the Russos were going to turn Thor into Volstagg? It's not Thor. www.themarysue.com/j-michael-straczynski-thor-in-avengers-endgame/Really, the whole script was lazy as hell. They not only screwed up Thor, they failed Cap. Did they not bother to watch all the movies? Do they forget how hard Steve Rogers tried to sacrifice himself to save others. So, sorry, no. As much as he wants to have a happily ever after with Peggy, he can't. He can't live with the idea of people crushed by the bully because he had to get the girl. The comics do not matter, would this work for Thor in the comics? no because that's a different version of Thor, for the MCU version it very much falls in line with his character, in the span of what 5 days Thor loses his father, 87.5% of his people, his home, has to basically kill his sister, learn 3 of his best friends died at his sisters hand, watch a 4th die by Thanos or one of his men I forget which, watch as his brother is choked to death right after they make amends and become brothers for the first time in years, and knows that 50% of all life in the universe came to an end because he couldn't kill Thanos in time because he had to gloat.
This isn't the Thor that is an actual god who dies and is reborn in a perpetual cycle, he isn't a divine being, he's an alien with near god like abilities, he is different than the comics, so whether it would happen to comic Thor means as much as if it would be possible if such a fate could happen to the Thor from the old Incredible Hulk TV Movie.
As for Steve in the films he's actually shown to be a pretty dickish guy, but his choice to find a life for himself makes sense, Steve helped save the universe, and he lost a lot of friends along the way, several due to his own actions, yeah Steve couldn't knowingly stand by and let bully's win but he didn't, they took out the biggest bully ever, and in doing so Steve saw the scope of the heroes the world had to protect them, people who can do a lot more for the world than he could, especially when some of the problems they faced he could and probably did deep down hold himself accountable for, again movie version isn't the same as the comics version and that's fine, also fine if you prefer the comic versions over the movie versions, but it doesn't make the movie versions "wrong".
We also don't know if that was a choice Steve made on his own or his fate as told to him, The Ancient One could have told him his future is behind him, his past is the future, he need not be a man out of time any longer, if he was always meant to marry Peggy then that's simply his destiny.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 22, 2019 16:59:26 GMT
Ok, so just know this that I have not seen Endgame. I have seen a TON of negative feedback in terms of "Fat Thor". From what I have read Thor is depressed in terms of not getting the job done (not going for the head). So he became a joke because he fell into alcoholism I guess. To me, this all seems like real life issues. Seems to me that Thor is suffering from survivors guilt. This just throws me into the guard of people who don't think depression is an issue. This resonates with me. Depression is a real thing. Depression might be a real thing but it is handled badly in this movie. Thor has survived banishment and getting his powers removed. He once thought he caused his father's death. He once thought he caused his brother's death. He had his hammer destroyed. Lost his eye. Saw his home world get destroyed and he made the decision to destroy it. Saw his mother, father and brother die and was helpless to stop it. Saw majority of his friends die and was helpless to stop it. Etc. And he's always been able to bounce back from all of these. Not because he doesn't get depressed or feel guilty but because of strength of character. Thor probably has the strongest/steeliest grit among all the Avengers. He's 1500 years old with thousands of battles under his belt and that will give you a tremendous backbone. And so while not being able to kill Thanos might make him guilty, and while this might be enough to cause other people to fall into depression, it didn't seem like a big enough reason to finally cause Thor to fall into depression, at least not one as serious as was shown in Endgame. This is something that would make sense if it was Tony Stark, Peter Quill, Wanda, even Bruce Banner. It would not have made sense if it was done with Cap, and it definitely doesn't make sense when done with Thor. It was very inconsistent with the way his character was depicted in the past.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 22, 2019 17:23:52 GMT
Ok, so just know this that I have not seen Endgame. I have seen a TON of negative feedback in terms of "Fat Thor". From what I have read Thor is depressed in terms of not getting the job done (not going for the head). So he became a joke because he fell into alcoholism I guess. To me, this all seems like real life issues. Seems to me that Thor is suffering from survivors guilt. This just throws me into the guard of people who don't think depression is an issue. This resonates with me. Depression is a real thing. Depression might be a real thing but it is handled badly in this movie. Thor has survived banishment and getting his powers removed. He once thought he caused his father's death. He once thought he caused his brother's death. He had his hammer destroyed. Lost his eye. Saw his home world get destroyed and he made the decision to destroy it. Saw his mother, father and brother die and was helpless to stop it. Saw majority of his friends die and was helpless to stop it. Etc. And he's always been able to bounce back from all of these. Not because he doesn't get depressed or feel guilty but because of strength of character. Thor probably has the strongest/steeliest grit among all the Avengers. He's 1500 years old with thousands of battles under his belt and that will give you a tremendous backbone. And so while not being able to kill Thanos might make him guilty, and while this might be enough to cause other people to fall into depression, it didn't seem like a big enough reason to finally cause Thor to fall into depression, at least not one as serious as was shown in Endgame. This is something that would make sense if it was Tony Stark, Peter Quill, Wanda, even Bruce Banner. It would not have made sense if it was done with Cap, and it definitely doesn't make sense when done with Thor. It was very inconsistent with the way his character was depicted in the past. Agreed. Just another case of MCU screwing up a character just so they can put in more lame jokes.
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Post by sostie on Jul 22, 2019 17:35:07 GMT
Depression might be a real thing but it is handled badly in this movie. Thor has survived banishment and getting his powers removed. He once thought he caused his father's death. He once thought he caused his brother's death. He had his hammer destroyed. Lost his eye. Saw his home world get destroyed and he made the decision to destroy it. Saw his mother, father and brother die and was helpless to stop it. Saw majority of his friends die and was helpless to stop it. Etc. And he's always been able to bounce back from all of these. Not because he doesn't get depressed or feel guilty but because of strength of character. Thor probably has the strongest/steeliest grit among all the Avengers. He's 1500 years old with thousands of battles under his belt and that will give you a tremendous backbone. And so while not being able to kill Thanos might make him guilty, and while this might be enough to cause other people to fall into depression, it didn't seem like a big enough reason to finally cause Thor to fall into depression, at least not one as serious as was shown in Endgame. This is something that would make sense if it was Tony Stark, Peter Quill, Wanda, even Bruce Banner. It would not have made sense if it was done with Cap, and it definitely doesn't make sense when done with Thor. It was very inconsistent with the way his character was depicted in the past. Agreed. Just another case of MCU screwing up a character just so they can put in more lame jokes. Like you give a fuck. The majority of your time is spent on the MCU threads complaining and making yourself look stupid. Are you aware of how much of a loser you come across as?
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Post by dazz on Jul 22, 2019 21:23:49 GMT
Ok, so just know this that I have not seen Endgame. I have seen a TON of negative feedback in terms of "Fat Thor". From what I have read Thor is depressed in terms of not getting the job done (not going for the head). So he became a joke because he fell into alcoholism I guess. To me, this all seems like real life issues. Seems to me that Thor is suffering from survivors guilt. This just throws me into the guard of people who don't think depression is an issue. This resonates with me. Depression is a real thing. Depression might be a real thing but it is handled badly in this movie. Thor has survived banishment and getting his powers removed. He once thought he caused his father's death. He once thought he caused his brother's death. He had his hammer destroyed. Lost his eye. Saw his home world get destroyed and he made the decision to destroy it. Saw his mother, father and brother die and was helpless to stop it. Saw majority of his friends die and was helpless to stop it. Etc. And he's always been able to bounce back from all of these. Not because he doesn't get depressed or feel guilty but because of strength of character. Thor probably has the strongest/steeliest grit among all the Avengers. He's 1500 years old with thousands of battles under his belt and that will give you a tremendous backbone. And so while not being able to kill Thanos might make him guilty, and while this might be enough to cause other people to fall into depression, it didn't seem like a big enough reason to finally cause Thor to fall into depression, at least not one as serious as was shown in Endgame. This is something that would make sense if it was Tony Stark, Peter Quill, Wanda, even Bruce Banner. It would not have made sense if it was done with Cap, and it definitely doesn't make sense when done with Thor. It was very inconsistent with the way his character was depicted in the past. Problem with that though is as we see Thor in his first movie he has lived his whole life at that point as the celebrated favourite son of Odin, he is Thor the Lord of Thunder, Asguards greatest warrior and champion, he's brash, reckless, arrogant and foolish, whilst we see some growth in the character over the next 7 years ultimately he doesn't change much, yes he gets knocked down a bunch but look at how he reacts each time, he confronts the issue and he beats it to fuck with his hammer, no film shows more than a week of his life, so any defeat of conflict he faces he takes care of and defeats in that amount of time, this is Thor after 5 years of wallowing in his failures, at that point technically Loki would be considered a better king than Thor, Loki rules their people for 3 years maybe 4, sure he allowed threats to emerge due to his negligence but Asguard was fine really, Thor was king for what 2 days before the snap? As soon as he became king he lost 75% of what remained of his people and he failed to protect the 9 realms, the second he was king the universe went to shit basically, and he has had to live with that for 5 years.
I think the thing to keep in mind is Thor isn't the only example of someone suffering depression over what happened, Tony, Cap, Widow, Clint all are also, Tony dealt with things and was able to move past his anger & resentment and appreciate what he had afterwards, Cap is the guy trying to find the silver lining but not buying it deep down, Widow threw herself into the work, Clint is consumed by his anger and lets it corrupt his ideals, Hulk also when you think the trauma of the battle with Thanos forced Banner to look inside himself and come to terms with himself resulting in Professor Hulk, how they reacted to things is clear by how they react to the idea of fixing everything, Clint & Thor lost all hope and faith so they are hesitant to get their hopes up, everyone else is like we can fix things? thank god, except Tony and only because of his daughter but he is still like we can do this? ok then but we have to do it right.
I get some not liking how things went honestly, but Thor did kind of make sense to be the guy to let himself go, not like he wasn't a glutton to begin with, just now he has no war to fight to burn off the calories, plus earth food whilst delicious probably has far more calories than he grew up with, remember they had better tech than us they could probably make a low in sugar low in calorie soda that doesn't taste like arse, and with the command of the Bifrost at his finger tips you know that pudgy bastard wasn't walking anywhere unless he had to.
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Post by damngumby on Jul 22, 2019 21:30:31 GMT
We want our superheroes rough around the edges, conflicted, sometimes wrong, but ultimately they do the right thing, not because someone told them to do it, but because they know it is the right thing to do. You've just demonstrated why MCU's so-called "heroes" aren't true heroes and you've also demonstrated why so many MCU fans are incapable to understanding what a true hero is. Because you claim that Steve Rogers should be allowed to ignore democracy and do whatever he wants ad not respect the authority of the people because he knows he's doing the right thing. Well, in Vulture's point-of-view, he knew he was doing the right thing providing for his family. In Quentin Beck's point-of-view, he knew he was doing the right thing getting restitution for all the former Stark employees who were screwed over by Tony Stark. It comes as no surprise that you have difficulty differentiating between a hero and a villain unless the hero is a law abiding boy-scout and the villain is a variant of Dr. Evil. Most people outgrow that naiveté at some point in their childhood. What happened to you? You also must have slept through the Superhero 101 class ... where it is explained how today's superheroes are the modern incarnation of the Greek gods. Unbeholden to the rules of men. Rules that can be corrupted and exploited. "True" superheroes are better than that, even if their road to righteousness is a rocky one. Your perverted version of a superhero, with no moral compass of their own, would lead you to the guillotine if a "democratically" elected body demanded it. Besides, the vigilante law breaking superhero is common in the DC universe. After all, many DC superheroes still wear masks and harbor secret identities so they can avoid accountability for their crimes. The MCU has jettisoned the secret identity. MCU superheroes must answer for their mistakes and live with the consequences of their actions. Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent just throw on a pair of glasses and they are suddenly free of all responsibility. So, you're wrong. Again.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jul 22, 2019 21:31:36 GMT
Well your opinion is valid. It wasn’t the most creative way to handle Thor’s coping. But here’s the thing. He has been on Earth long 8 to understand the way humans deal with things. After all, he’s been drinking beer since Ragnarok. I find it believable. No. Far more likely he would turn into a dictator over his people to make sure no more died. Curfew. 100 foot tall wall around New Asgard if not that fishnet thing we saw in Dark World. Everyone mandatory military training. Not to mention the sheer amount of calories required to make him anything near Volstagg the Voluminous. How many calories does actual lighting coursing through one's body burn? Cap used Mjolnir. He did not have lightning run through his body, lighting up his eyes like Thor. Mjolnir was, as Odin pointed out, meant to help Thor control his natural lightning power. Sweet, yes. Not Steve. Threw himself on that grenade. Went deep behind enemy lines to save Bucky (Come on. The other guys were bonus. He went to save his friend). Went down with that plane. SERIOUS death wish. The curse on Mjolnir said that whoever is worthy gets the power of Thor. It didn't say can only use the hammer.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 22, 2019 22:04:38 GMT
Depression might be a real thing but it is handled badly in this movie. Thor has survived banishment and getting his powers removed. He once thought he caused his father's death. He once thought he caused his brother's death. He had his hammer destroyed. Lost his eye. Saw his home world get destroyed and he made the decision to destroy it. Saw his mother, father and brother die and was helpless to stop it. Saw majority of his friends die and was helpless to stop it. Etc. And he's always been able to bounce back from all of these. Not because he doesn't get depressed or feel guilty but because of strength of character. Thor probably has the strongest/steeliest grit among all the Avengers. He's 1500 years old with thousands of battles under his belt and that will give you a tremendous backbone. And so while not being able to kill Thanos might make him guilty, and while this might be enough to cause other people to fall into depression, it didn't seem like a big enough reason to finally cause Thor to fall into depression, at least not one as serious as was shown in Endgame. This is something that would make sense if it was Tony Stark, Peter Quill, Wanda, even Bruce Banner. It would not have made sense if it was done with Cap, and it definitely doesn't make sense when done with Thor. It was very inconsistent with the way his character was depicted in the past. Problem with that though is as we see Thor in his first movie he has lived his whole life at that point as the celebrated favourite son of Odin, he is Thor the Lord of Thunder, Asguards greatest warrior and champion, he's brash, reckless, arrogant and foolish, whilst we see some growth in the character over the next 7 years ultimately he doesn't change much, yes he gets knocked down a bunch but look at how he reacts each time, he confronts the issue and he beats it to fuck with his hammer, no film shows more than a week of his life, so any defeat of conflict he faces he takes care of and defeats in that amount of time, this is Thor after 5 years of wallowing in his failures, at that point technically Loki would be considered a better king than Thor, Loki rules their people for 3 years maybe 4, sure he allowed threats to emerge due to his negligence but Asguard was fine really, Thor was king for what 2 days before the snap? As soon as he became king he lost 75% of what remained of his people and he failed to protect the 9 realms, the second he was king the universe went to shit basically, and he has had to live with that for 5 years.
I think the thing to keep in mind is Thor isn't the only example of someone suffering depression over what happened, Tony, Cap, Widow, Clint all are also, Tony dealt with things and was able to move past his anger & resentment and appreciate what he had afterwards, Cap is the guy trying to find the silver lining but not buying it deep down, Widow threw herself into the work, Clint is consumed by his anger and lets it corrupt his ideals, Hulk also when you think the trauma of the battle with Thanos forced Banner to look inside himself and come to terms with himself resulting in Professor Hulk, how they reacted to things is clear by how they react to the idea of fixing everything, Clint & Thor lost all hope and faith so they are hesitant to get their hopes up, everyone else is like we can fix things? thank god, except Tony and only because of his daughter but he is still like we can do this? ok then but we have to do it right.
I get some not liking how things went honestly, but Thor did kind of make sense to be the guy to let himself go, not like he wasn't a glutton to begin with, just now he has no war to fight to burn off the calories, plus earth food whilst delicious probably has far more calories than he grew up with, remember they had better tech than us they could probably make a low in sugar low in calorie soda that doesn't taste like arse, and with the command of the Bifrost at his finger tips you know that pudgy bastard wasn't walking anywhere unless he had to.
Just because we're not shown what happens in between movies doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen in between movies. Thor was helpless to stop his mother dying (he was like 5 seconds too late) and he had to live with that for the next few years yet he didn't go into depression then. He didn't just "beat it with a hammer". After the events of Thor, he thought he was responsible for the death of his brother and he didn't realize Loki was still alive till a year after. He didn't go into depression during that year and certainly didn't beat his depression with his hammer. The worst things that ever happened to Thor were not things that he could just "beat with his hammer", and yet he never suffered depression from any of them. In the end, we can justify Thor's depression any way we want, even say it in a way that makes sense, still doesn't change the fact that it goes against what we know of him as a character. Every single one of the Avengers technically failed when Thanos won, yet it's the one with the toughest fortitude that ends up breaking? Sorry, not buying it. And it's not like it's just me either. There's a reason why fat Thor is so divisive among fans. P.S. I'm also not complaining about Thor being fat. I actually thought it was pretty cool that he got fat. What I have issues with is his mind-set and complete incompetence. Even people who undergo depression usually maintain some semblance of their former selves. Endgame Thor shared very little resemblance personality-wise to his old self.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 22, 2019 22:10:45 GMT
Problem with that though is as we see Thor in his first movie he has lived his whole life at that point as the celebrated favourite son of Odin, he is Thor the Lord of Thunder, Asguards greatest warrior and champion, he's brash, reckless, arrogant and foolish, whilst we see some growth in the character over the next 7 years ultimately he doesn't change much, yes he gets knocked down a bunch but look at how he reacts each time, he confronts the issue and he beats it to fuck with his hammer, no film shows more than a week of his life, so any defeat of conflict he faces he takes care of and defeats in that amount of time, this is Thor after 5 years of wallowing in his failures, at that point technically Loki would be considered a better king than Thor, Loki rules their people for 3 years maybe 4, sure he allowed threats to emerge due to his negligence but Asguard was fine really, Thor was king for what 2 days before the snap? As soon as he became king he lost 75% of what remained of his people and he failed to protect the 9 realms, the second he was king the universe went to shit basically, and he has had to live with that for 5 years.
I think the thing to keep in mind is Thor isn't the only example of someone suffering depression over what happened, Tony, Cap, Widow, Clint all are also, Tony dealt with things and was able to move past his anger & resentment and appreciate what he had afterwards, Cap is the guy trying to find the silver lining but not buying it deep down, Widow threw herself into the work, Clint is consumed by his anger and lets it corrupt his ideals, Hulk also when you think the trauma of the battle with Thanos forced Banner to look inside himself and come to terms with himself resulting in Professor Hulk, how they reacted to things is clear by how they react to the idea of fixing everything, Clint & Thor lost all hope and faith so they are hesitant to get their hopes up, everyone else is like we can fix things? thank god, except Tony and only because of his daughter but he is still like we can do this? ok then but we have to do it right.
I get some not liking how things went honestly, but Thor did kind of make sense to be the guy to let himself go, not like he wasn't a glutton to begin with, just now he has no war to fight to burn off the calories, plus earth food whilst delicious probably has far more calories than he grew up with, remember they had better tech than us they could probably make a low in sugar low in calorie soda that doesn't taste like arse, and with the command of the Bifrost at his finger tips you know that pudgy bastard wasn't walking anywhere unless he had to.
Just because we're not shown what happens in between movies doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen in between movies. Thor was helpless to stop his mother dying (he was like 5 seconds too late) and he had to live with that for the next few years yet he didn't go into depression then. He didn't just "beat it with a hammer". After the events of Thor, he thought he was responsible for the death of his brother and he didn't realize Loki was still alive till a year after. He didn't go into depression during that year and certainly didn't beat his depression with his hammer. The worst things that ever happened to Thor were not things that he could just "beat with his hammer", and yet he never suffered depression from any of them. In the end, we can justify Thor's depression any way we want, even say it in a way that makes sense, still doesn't change the fact that it goes against what we know of him as a character. Every single one of the Avengers technically failed when Thanos won, yet it's the one with the toughest fortitude that ends up breaking? Sorry, not buying it. And it's not like it's just me either. There's a reason why fat Thor is so divisive among fans. Agreed. Just another case of MCU screwing up a character just so they can put in more lame jokes.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 22, 2019 22:22:24 GMT
The question is, does fat Thor do his fair share to fight toxic masculinity?
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Post by dazz on Jul 22, 2019 22:45:03 GMT
Problem with that though is as we see Thor in his first movie he has lived his whole life at that point as the celebrated favourite son of Odin, he is Thor the Lord of Thunder, Asguards greatest warrior and champion, he's brash, reckless, arrogant and foolish, whilst we see some growth in the character over the next 7 years ultimately he doesn't change much, yes he gets knocked down a bunch but look at how he reacts each time, he confronts the issue and he beats it to fuck with his hammer, no film shows more than a week of his life, so any defeat of conflict he faces he takes care of and defeats in that amount of time, this is Thor after 5 years of wallowing in his failures, at that point technically Loki would be considered a better king than Thor, Loki rules their people for 3 years maybe 4, sure he allowed threats to emerge due to his negligence but Asguard was fine really, Thor was king for what 2 days before the snap? As soon as he became king he lost 75% of what remained of his people and he failed to protect the 9 realms, the second he was king the universe went to shit basically, and he has had to live with that for 5 years.
I think the thing to keep in mind is Thor isn't the only example of someone suffering depression over what happened, Tony, Cap, Widow, Clint all are also, Tony dealt with things and was able to move past his anger & resentment and appreciate what he had afterwards, Cap is the guy trying to find the silver lining but not buying it deep down, Widow threw herself into the work, Clint is consumed by his anger and lets it corrupt his ideals, Hulk also when you think the trauma of the battle with Thanos forced Banner to look inside himself and come to terms with himself resulting in Professor Hulk, how they reacted to things is clear by how they react to the idea of fixing everything, Clint & Thor lost all hope and faith so they are hesitant to get their hopes up, everyone else is like we can fix things? thank god, except Tony and only because of his daughter but he is still like we can do this? ok then but we have to do it right.
I get some not liking how things went honestly, but Thor did kind of make sense to be the guy to let himself go, not like he wasn't a glutton to begin with, just now he has no war to fight to burn off the calories, plus earth food whilst delicious probably has far more calories than he grew up with, remember they had better tech than us they could probably make a low in sugar low in calorie soda that doesn't taste like arse, and with the command of the Bifrost at his finger tips you know that pudgy bastard wasn't walking anywhere unless he had to.
Just because we're not shown what happens in between movies doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen in between movies. Thor was helpless to stop his mother dying (he was like 5 seconds too late) and he had to live with that for the next few years yet he didn't go into depression then. He didn't just "beat it with a hammer". After the events of Thor, he thought he was responsible for the death of his brother and he didn't realize Loki was still alive till a year after. He didn't go into depression during that year and certainly didn't beat his depression with his hammer. The worst things that ever happened to Thor were not things that he could just "beat with his hammer", and yet he never suffered depression from any of them. In the end, we can justify Thor's depression any way we want, even say it in a way that makes sense, still doesn't change the fact that it goes against what we know of him as a character. Every single one of the Avengers technically failed when Thanos won, yet it's the one with the toughest fortitude that ends up breaking? Sorry, not buying it. And it's not like it's just me either. There's a reason why fat Thor is so divisive among fans. My point was any other time Thor suffers something he ultimately can get some revenge and he find some resolution with what happened, his mother is killed, his brother is "killed" and he avenges that but he also then saves the universe by beating Malaketh, then he spends the next year or so with the Avengers rooting out and kick Hydra butt, he has an outlet as well as emotional comfort from Jane, in Endgame he doesn't have that, killing Thanos didn't fix anything, didn't save anyone, also his mothers death wasn't his fault, Loki's death wasn't his fault, he wasn't able to save them but that's not the same as with Thanos where Thanos was able to win because Thor didn't end him like he should have, Thor had to gloat and rub it in which is what gives Thanos the opportunity to snap his fingers and kill half the universe, something Thor never dealt with before, every other time it's something happening to him and the people he loves, this time it was something happening because of him, we also see cracks in Thor in IW, all he suffered is taking it's toll but he holds onto the belief that he is Thor the Odinson and there is no foe he cannot best, no threat he cannot contain, even though he just got his arse kicked backed to back by his sister then Thanos, but in the end he cannot save everyone and he in his own head is responsible for it.
This is the first time in Thor's life that things went to shit and he couldn't in some way find the silver lining, like I said Dark World he loses a lot but he also gains a lot and he gets to feel a sense of accomplishment after saving the universe, in Endgame there is no gain, there is no accomplishment it's just shit, and how much so we don't know, which maybe we should have been told, like what if Jane had been one of the people who were snapped away? sure they broke up but that didn't mean he didn't love her still, so you literally have Thor in his mind be responsible for the death of the woman he loves.
I personally don't buy he has the strongest resolve, Thor deals with shit by fighting, this is the first time fighting does nothing, which is the point, that's why Thor kills Thanos and reacts the way he does, he did what he thought was going to be needed and it didn't matter and he knows it, which works for me.
I agree it's divisive but I think it works, I get others not feeling that way and I don't have an issue with it, I am just saying my pov on things, and where I see it differently, such as I don't think Thor ever had to deal with an issue like this at all, Thor is a warrior he is used to the idea of losing people to win a battle and such, the death of one or a few people he gets, this is something he was never shown dealing with though, survivors guilt, the feeling of responsibility, yes everyone else failed, but everyone else failed whilst doing their best, Thor failed because of his ego, he had to make Thanos suffer, had he pulled Stormbreaker out and just kept chopping away none of this would have happened in his mind atleast.
But I get why a fair few dislike it, had this been Thor after Thor 1- Ultron's response I would probably agree but Ragnarok & IW set the stage enough for me to not be bothered by the comedy, and formed enough cracks in the ever confident god of thunder's ego for me to buy it is all.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 22, 2019 23:32:59 GMT
Just because we're not shown what happens in between movies doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen in between movies. Thor was helpless to stop his mother dying (he was like 5 seconds too late) and he had to live with that for the next few years yet he didn't go into depression then. He didn't just "beat it with a hammer". After the events of Thor, he thought he was responsible for the death of his brother and he didn't realize Loki was still alive till a year after. He didn't go into depression during that year and certainly didn't beat his depression with his hammer. The worst things that ever happened to Thor were not things that he could just "beat with his hammer", and yet he never suffered depression from any of them. In the end, we can justify Thor's depression any way we want, even say it in a way that makes sense, still doesn't change the fact that it goes against what we know of him as a character. Every single one of the Avengers technically failed when Thanos won, yet it's the one with the toughest fortitude that ends up breaking? Sorry, not buying it. And it's not like it's just me either. There's a reason why fat Thor is so divisive among fans. My point was any other time Thor suffers something he ultimately can get some revenge and he find some resolution with what happened, his mother is killed, his brother is "killed" and he avenges that but he also then saves the universe by beating Malaketh, then he spends the next year or so with the Avengers rooting out and kick Hydra butt, he has an outlet as well as emotional comfort from Jane, in Endgame he doesn't have that, killing Thanos didn't fix anything, didn't save anyone, also his mothers death wasn't his fault, Loki's death wasn't his fault, he wasn't able to save them but that's not the same as with Thanos where Thanos was able to win because Thor didn't end him like he should have, Thor had to gloat and rub it in which is what gives Thanos the opportunity to snap his fingers and kill half the universe, something Thor never dealt with before, every other time it's something happening to him and the people he loves, this time it was something happening because of him, we also see cracks in Thor in IW, all he suffered is taking it's toll but he holds onto the belief that he is Thor the Odinson and there is no foe he cannot best, no threat he cannot contain, even though he just got his arse kicked backed to back by his sister then Thanos, but in the end he cannot save everyone and he in his own head is responsible for it.
This is the first time in Thor's life that things went to shit and he couldn't in some way find the silver lining, like I said Dark World he loses a lot but he also gains a lot and he gets to feel a sense of accomplishment after saving the universe, in Endgame there is no gain, there is no accomplishment it's just shit, and how much so we don't know, which maybe we should have been told, like what if Jane had been one of the people who were snapped away? sure they broke up but that didn't mean he didn't love her still, so you literally have Thor in his mind be responsible for the death of the woman he loves.
I personally don't buy he has the strongest resolve, Thor deals with shit by fighting, this is the first time fighting does nothing, which is the point, that's why Thor kills Thanos and reacts the way he does, he did what he thought was going to be needed and it didn't matter and he knows it, which works for me.
I agree it's divisive but I think it works, I get others not feeling that way and I don't have an issue with it, I am just saying my pov on things, and where I see it differently, such as I don't think Thor ever had to deal with an issue like this at all, Thor is a warrior he is used to the idea of losing people to win a battle and such, the death of one or a few people he gets, this is something he was never shown dealing with though, survivors guilt, the feeling of responsibility, yes everyone else failed, but everyone else failed whilst doing their best, Thor failed because of his ego, he had to make Thanos suffer, had he pulled Stormbreaker out and just kept chopping away none of this would have happened in his mind atleast.
But I get why a fair few dislike it, had this been Thor after Thor 1- Ultron's response I would probably agree but Ragnarok & IW set the stage enough for me to not be bothered by the comedy, and formed enough cracks in the ever confident god of thunder's ego for me to buy it is all.
I don't think what happened with Thanos is that much different from other failures in his life. It wasn't his fault that half the universe got wiped, but he could have done something about it by aiming better for the head. In the same way, it wasn't his fault that his mother died, but he could have done something about it by arrived 5 seconds earlier. He was able to get revenge on Malekith by killing him later, but that didn't bring his mother back to life. Same way he got revenge on Thanos by chopping his head off but it didn't bring the people back from the snap. At least he got some kind of revenge. There were some things he couldn't get revenge for, like when he got banished and his powers removed. Like when Loki made him believe he caused his father's death. Like when he made the decision to destroy Asgard. In none of those did he have a chance to take revenge on someone. You say he had purpose after his mother had died because he got to go back to Jane and hang out with the Avengers. That's no different from after IW where he had a budding relationship with Valkyrie and still had his people that he could hang out with and lead. You say he had no purpose because he had no war... that's not true again. One, he could have still been king of Asgard. Two, Captain Marvel mentioned that the universe was in turmoil after the snap. Thor could have simply went from world to world. It's similar to what he did after AOU after all. Besides, he could have still found purpose with the Avengers. It's not like they stopped working after the snap. And the reason I say he's got the strongest resolve is because none of the other Avengers ever went through half as much trials as he did and still survived. Maybe someone else has stronger resolve, who knows, but they simply don't have the movie feats to back it up. And sure, we've seen cracks in him before. He's not made of stone. But he never broke. And like I said, he broke so bad in Endgame that he was a completely different person from what he was before. That was completely inconsistent with his character.
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Post by dazz on Jul 23, 2019 0:39:35 GMT
My point was any other time Thor suffers something he ultimately can get some revenge and he find some resolution with what happened, his mother is killed, his brother is "killed" and he avenges that but he also then saves the universe by beating Malaketh, then he spends the next year or so with the Avengers rooting out and kick Hydra butt, he has an outlet as well as emotional comfort from Jane, in Endgame he doesn't have that, killing Thanos didn't fix anything, didn't save anyone, also his mothers death wasn't his fault, Loki's death wasn't his fault, he wasn't able to save them but that's not the same as with Thanos where Thanos was able to win because Thor didn't end him like he should have, Thor had to gloat and rub it in which is what gives Thanos the opportunity to snap his fingers and kill half the universe, something Thor never dealt with before, every other time it's something happening to him and the people he loves, this time it was something happening because of him, we also see cracks in Thor in IW, all he suffered is taking it's toll but he holds onto the belief that he is Thor the Odinson and there is no foe he cannot best, no threat he cannot contain, even though he just got his arse kicked backed to back by his sister then Thanos, but in the end he cannot save everyone and he in his own head is responsible for it.
This is the first time in Thor's life that things went to shit and he couldn't in some way find the silver lining, like I said Dark World he loses a lot but he also gains a lot and he gets to feel a sense of accomplishment after saving the universe, in Endgame there is no gain, there is no accomplishment it's just shit, and how much so we don't know, which maybe we should have been told, like what if Jane had been one of the people who were snapped away? sure they broke up but that didn't mean he didn't love her still, so you literally have Thor in his mind be responsible for the death of the woman he loves.
I personally don't buy he has the strongest resolve, Thor deals with shit by fighting, this is the first time fighting does nothing, which is the point, that's why Thor kills Thanos and reacts the way he does, he did what he thought was going to be needed and it didn't matter and he knows it, which works for me.
I agree it's divisive but I think it works, I get others not feeling that way and I don't have an issue with it, I am just saying my pov on things, and where I see it differently, such as I don't think Thor ever had to deal with an issue like this at all, Thor is a warrior he is used to the idea of losing people to win a battle and such, the death of one or a few people he gets, this is something he was never shown dealing with though, survivors guilt, the feeling of responsibility, yes everyone else failed, but everyone else failed whilst doing their best, Thor failed because of his ego, he had to make Thanos suffer, had he pulled Stormbreaker out and just kept chopping away none of this would have happened in his mind atleast.
But I get why a fair few dislike it, had this been Thor after Thor 1- Ultron's response I would probably agree but Ragnarok & IW set the stage enough for me to not be bothered by the comedy, and formed enough cracks in the ever confident god of thunder's ego for me to buy it is all.
I don't think what happened with Thanos is that much different from other failures in his life. It wasn't his fault that half the universe got wiped, but he could have done something about it by aiming better for the head. In the same way, it wasn't his fault that his mother died, but he could have done something about it by arrived 5 seconds earlier. He was able to get revenge on Malekith by killing him later, but that didn't bring his mother back to life. Same way he got revenge on Thanos by chopping his head off but it didn't bring the people back from the snap. At least he got some kind of revenge. There were some things he couldn't get revenge for, like when he got banished and his powers removed. Like when Loki made him believe he caused his father's death. Like when he made the decision to destroy Asgard. In none of those did he have a chance to take revenge on someone. You say he had purpose after his mother had died because he got to go back to Jane and hang out with the Avengers. That's no different from after IW where he had a budding relationship with Valkyrie and still had his people that he could hang out with and lead. You say he had no purpose because he had no war... that's not true again. One, he could have still been king of Asgard. Two, Captain Marvel mentioned that the universe was in turmoil after the snap. Thor could have simply went from world to world. It's similar to what he did after AOU after all. Besides, he could have still found purpose with the Avengers. It's not like they stopped working after the snap. And the reason I say he's got the strongest resolve is because none of the other Avengers ever went through half as much trials as he did and still survived. Maybe someone else has stronger resolve, who knows, but they simply don't have the movie feats to back it up. And sure, we've seen cracks in him before. He's not made of stone. But he never broke. And like I said, he broke so bad in Endgame that he was a completely different person from what he was before. That was completely inconsistent with his character. The difference with Thanos in my mind and sort of how I feel they played it in the movie was Thor not going for the head isn't how he failed in that moment, it's that he had the chance to end Thanos after that but he chooses to hurt him rather than end him, him slowly pushing Stormbreaker deeper into Thanos's chest letting the mad Titan see and understand it was Thor who brought him to his knee's and made him pay, this gave Thanos the chance to use the stones, with him not being fast enough or strong enough to say his mother or Loki in Dark World is different Thor physically couldn't have prevented anything, he did his best and he failed, in IW though he didn't, he let ego and pride cloud his objective and half the universe paid for his hubris, and that's the thing he never dealt with before, that and like I said survivors guilt.
Thing to me is that there are ways to explain things better I guess like that's the thing we don't know how Thor went from "I went for the head" after killing Thanos to intimidating game trolls on Fortnite, we just know he did, he could have tried the hero thing but it not be enough, or he could have started down this path but tried being Thor still and failing so he was benched and that was 4 years ago and he's just got worse, he could have ruled his people but found himself ill equipped to do so and left it up to Valkarie, we just don't know.
But losing your mother and brother but having the woman you love and everything in your world and the knowledge you saved the universe and avenged them to fall back on is different to losing your father, brother, 90% of your people, 50% of the universe, all your life long friends, half your new friends, your entire planet, feeling that most of that is your own fault, not having the woman you love to fall back on only a handful of people you met a week prior to or even after all of this started to happen and you really didn't avenge anything because you didn't stop the person who caused it you simply killed someone who wasn't even fighting back in cold blood, that I think would also be part of Thor's issue, Thanos didn't fight back, Thor didn't best him, didn't prove or redeem himself, he flat out murders Thanos.
If Thor were the only one who dealt with shit bad I would get it but he isn't, also a lot of other people have had worse than Thor happen to them prior to Ragnarok, Tony's parents were murdered and he actually ends up seeing them be murdered on tape, his uncle figure tries to have him killed, he grew up believing his dad never cared for him, he has the weight of Ultron on his back, one of his best friends betrayed him to protect his parents killer, he almost died chucking a nuke through a space hole, almost died due to metal poisoning of some kind, and realised the weapons he designed to stop the bad guys were being used by the bad guys to kill innocent people, Thor prior to Ragnarok had his mother be killed and his brother be killed, yes he was banished from Asguard which he was welcomed back once he proved himself worthy, he was told Odin died which turned out to be a lie and he knew it soon after that's the scope of Thor's trauma, it's honestly not much, this is more an issue with Thor's past never being fleshed out though, seemingly Thor had all his life things going smooth and the last decade has just been a shit show for him, had we got more depth to his life prior to Thor 1 then his resolve and resiliency could be an issue, but it isn't so imo it shouldn't you know?
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Post by merh on Jul 25, 2019 10:39:04 GMT
No. Far more likely he would turn into a dictator over his people to make sure no more died. Curfew. 100 foot tall wall around New Asgard if not that fishnet thing we saw in Dark World. Everyone mandatory military training. Not to mention the sheer amount of calories required to make him anything near Volstagg the Voluminous. How many calories does actual lighting coursing through one's body burn? Cap used Mjolnir. He did not have lightning run through his body, lighting up his eyes like Thor. Mjolnir was, as Odin pointed out, meant to help Thor control his natural lightning power. Sweet, yes. Not Steve. Threw himself on that grenade. Went deep behind enemy lines to save Bucky (Come on. The other guys were bonus. He went to save his friend). Went down with that plane. SERIOUS death wish. The curse on Mjolnir said that whoever is worthy gets the power of Thor. It didn't say can only use the hammer. Did Steve's eyes light up? Did lightning ripple off his skin? Arc between fingertips? Mjolnir conducts energy. Whoever is worthy can use the hammer. It's not like they gain the mutant power over weather like Storm. Ragnarok showed Thor the power wasnt from Mjolnor, but from himself. Hela destroyed Mjolnir. The hammer Steve used was returned to the past so it could be used as it had in the interim time. Odin is dead. He had no part in Stormbreaker. There is no enchantment on that weapon.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 25, 2019 21:00:01 GMT
Ok, so just know this that I have not seen Endgame. I have seen a TON of negative feedback in terms of "Fat Thor". From what I have read Thor is depressed in terms of not getting the job done (not going for the head). So he became a joke because he fell into alcoholism I guess. To me, this all seems like real life issues. Seems to me that Thor is suffering from survivors guilt. This just throws me into the guard of people who don't think depression is an issue. This resonates with me. Depression is a real thing. I don't have a problem with any of that, and I did like the movie.
But I did have two issues: 1) As a "god" would Thor experience alcoholism, survivors guilt, depression the same way that humans do? I think it needs to be taken into account that Thor is truly a mighty and "other"worldly character. He's not just some guy. I honestly don't think Thor would suffer the same way ordinary people do. I can see Hawkeye, Black Widow and Iron Man going through what they did, but it just seemed a little out of place with Thor.
2) Why did they KEEP him fat throughout the movie? He be burned into a crisp and almost die and the come back to life by grabbing hammer in Infinity War, but he cant come back to his prime by grabbing a hammer in Endgame?
His being fat was a joke they came up with and dragged it out too long... imo.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 26, 2019 2:54:50 GMT
Made sense. Thor was so obsessed for vengeance against Thanos that it cost the entire universe half, possibly more, of it's population. Thor failed to kill Thanos and took it the hardest out of all them.
He fell into deep depression and turned to food and alcohol to cope. I've seen it happen to others, it's sad to see.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 26, 2019 15:23:16 GMT
Thor letting himself go eschews the classic archetype of the ultra-fit superhero. That's unacceptable to most fans.
I see Thor's failure to defeat Thanos as similar to him becoming unworthy in the comics. He usually acts out of character in those instances questioning his identity and motivations.
Endgame takes a known tendency of the character and pushes it to a comedic extreme. While I don't agree with how Marvel executed the choice, it is in line with known depictions of the character.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 26, 2019 16:08:08 GMT
Thor letting himself go eschews the classic archetype of the ultra-fit superhero. That's unacceptable to most fans. I see Thor's failure to defeat Thanos as similar to him becoming unworthy in the comics. He usually acts out of character in those instances questioning his identity and motivations. Endgame takes a known tendency of the character and pushes it to a comedic extreme. While I don't agree with how Marvel executed the choice, it is in line with known depictions of the character. I think the problem here is not that he became fat, it's that he became dumb and useless on top of being fat... and he was dumb and useless till the end of the movie. I've had some friends who suffered depression, they don't suddenly lose 100 IQ points just because they're depressed. While we can definitely expect a personality change in Thor if he had let himself go like that, the personality change shown in Endgame is too extreme so much that he was pretty much a completely different character already.
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