|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 29, 2019 22:48:08 GMT
When did I ever say his 5 year slump would have no effect on his fighting ability? I said it should not have had this big of an impact, as if he suddenly became a completely different person. 5 years of inactivity out of more than a thousand years of fighting experience and training should not have made him into such an inept fighter. Again, I'm not saying he should have defeated Thanos, not saying he should have been just as good as he was before, but certainly should have been able to do more than stay there and become a punching bag. I grew up in a family and environment of martial artists. A few years of depression and inactivity doesn't make you lose that much of your skills that fast. You might be slower, duller, weaker, but your muscle memory should still be there. You say I'm only focusing on that one clip. Fine, show me other clips of him in Endgame displaying remnants of his skill. As for your example of Thor in Ragnarok, that's a bad example. For one, Thor actually was giving Hulk hell of a fight there, even before he unlocked his lightning god powers. And obviously the fact that Thor was trying to talk to Hulk and reason with him is a huge factor, as he isn't trying to talk to and reason with Thanos. It didn't have a big effect, what happened to Fat Thor happened to Skinny Thor, but by a slower and less skilled fighter, one who when he pummelled Thor couldn't break his skin, Thanos did, so Thanos seemingly has more powerful or damaging punches than Hulk, so Thor being rocked by them to the point he doesn't cover up isn't a massive drop in skill, and Hulk battered thor after blocking a hammer shot and uppercutting a dumbstruck thunder god, compared to Thanos who grappled with Thor and threw him then pulled away his blocking and pummelled him before throwing him again stomping him and pummelling a little more, Thor literally spent 6 seconds being beaten by Thanos compared to how long Hulk was donkey konging him.
You are acting like not showcasing Thor is the same as regressing is skills, it's not they literally just don't show Thor being awesome, at no point are we seen Thor being pummelled by anyone but Thanos, did they fail to make Thor look awesome? yes they did but that's not the same thing, I don't know why you think it is.
Nah, what happened to Fat Thor didn't happen to Skinny Thor. Skinny Thor got pummeled by Hulk and he pummeled Hulk right back. Prime Thor is not invincible, it's not like I'm saying he should never get hit. The main thing is that we see him able to fight back. Fat Thor on the other hand... just got pummeled. Period. No trying to pummel back. No trying to stop the pummeling. Heck, skinny Thor was able to get out of being pummeled by using his lightning, and this was him before he mastered his lightning. So again, using Hulk as an example is not doing your argument any favors. My main gripe with Fat Thor was not that he got pummeled but rather that he did nothing EXCEPT getting pummeled. Do you see the difference? And yes, a person not showing any skill while they're getting pounded to death is pretty much the same thing as showing a person doesn't have skill. I mean, how else are you going to show someone having skill other than, you know, show it?
|
|
|
|
Post by merh on Jul 30, 2019 1:41:02 GMT
Did Steve's eyes light up? Did lightning ripple off his skin? Arc between fingertips? Mjolnir conducts energy. Whoever is worthy can use the hammer. It's not like they gain the mutant power over weather like Storm. Ragnarok showed Thor the power wasnt from Mjolnor, but from himself. Hela destroyed Mjolnir. The hammer Steve used was returned to the past so it could be used as it had in the interim time. Odin is dead. He had no part in Stormbreaker. There is no enchantment on that weapon. Um... Steve used Mjolnir... And Steve did use lightning. The curse on the hammer is for when the person is wielding the hammer. And that's what Thor thought the entire time. That the hammer is what gave him his power. But what Odin did was put an enchantment on Mjolnir that put a copy of Thor's powers into the hammer. "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." is the enchantment. "Possess the power of Thor." It doesn't end with "shall use the hammer." And Steve had the power on him to call Stormbreaker and Mjolnir. Since he can retrieve Mjolnir. It was a long movie, but I saw it twice My memory is the lightning Steve used went through Mjolnir, not through Steve's body. Actually, Thor's mother is Gaia so he also has had some powers over earth (earthquakes) by some authors.
|
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Jul 30, 2019 5:49:02 GMT
It didn't have a big effect, what happened to Fat Thor happened to Skinny Thor, but by a slower and less skilled fighter, one who when he pummelled Thor couldn't break his skin, Thanos did, so Thanos seemingly has more powerful or damaging punches than Hulk, so Thor being rocked by them to the point he doesn't cover up isn't a massive drop in skill, and Hulk battered thor after blocking a hammer shot and uppercutting a dumbstruck thunder god, compared to Thanos who grappled with Thor and threw him then pulled away his blocking and pummelled him before throwing him again stomping him and pummelling a little more, Thor literally spent 6 seconds being beaten by Thanos compared to how long Hulk was donkey konging him.
You are acting like not showcasing Thor is the same as regressing is skills, it's not they literally just don't show Thor being awesome, at no point are we seen Thor being pummelled by anyone but Thanos, did they fail to make Thor look awesome? yes they did but that's not the same thing, I don't know why you think it is.
Nah, what happened to Fat Thor didn't happen to Skinny Thor. Skinny Thor got pummeled by Hulk and he pummeled Hulk right back. Prime Thor is not invincible, it's not like I'm saying he should never get hit. The main thing is that we see him able to fight back. Fat Thor on the other hand... just got pummeled. Period. No trying to pummel back. No trying to stop the pummeling. Heck, skinny Thor was able to get out of being pummeled by using his lightning, and this was him before he mastered his lightning. So again, using Hulk as an example is not doing your argument any favors. My main gripe with Fat Thor was not that he got pummeled but rather that he did nothing EXCEPT getting pummeled. Do you see the difference? And yes, a person not showing any skill while they're getting pounded to death is pretty much the same thing as showing a person doesn't have skill. I mean, how else are you going to show someone having skill other than, you know, show it? Thor forgets he has the lightning the second he is shocked by Goldblum's character, he hadn't mastered his powers, he could use them during his fight with Hulk after his initial outburst for the remainder of the fight then not again until his vision of Odin reminds him what he is the god of again, Thor didn't fight back watch then have an instinctive reaction against Hulk, in Endgame instead of summoning lightning he summoned Stormbreaker and paid for it, he did try to fight back he just couldn't, and again Thor got hit with like 4 or 5 rapid shots against Thanos that is it, compared to the dozen or more hammer fist blows h took from the much slower Hulk.
So this isn't lowering Thor's standards, that implies he is worse than ever, he isn't he just doesn't get something epic to counter his failings, that's them not showcasing Thor well, it is not lowering his abilities, and it's not unbelievable he was in that situation either.
And how else do show his skills? well you don't, but you imply it, the fact Thor had no issue with anyone but Thanos tells you what level he is on regardless of the showcasing, had Thor been getting slapped around by an Outrider or whatever they were called then fair enough, that is something Thor never had happen to him, but you have literally harped on 5 seconds of a fight scene as if it shits on the characters entire skill level, and now I have pointed out he took worse and looked less effective at a point against Hulk you are making excuse as to why that doesn't count, you dislike how Thor got used, that's fair but you aren't justifying why you dislike it with this argument.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 30, 2019 16:20:42 GMT
Nah, what happened to Fat Thor didn't happen to Skinny Thor. Skinny Thor got pummeled by Hulk and he pummeled Hulk right back. Prime Thor is not invincible, it's not like I'm saying he should never get hit. The main thing is that we see him able to fight back. Fat Thor on the other hand... just got pummeled. Period. No trying to pummel back. No trying to stop the pummeling. Heck, skinny Thor was able to get out of being pummeled by using his lightning, and this was him before he mastered his lightning. So again, using Hulk as an example is not doing your argument any favors. My main gripe with Fat Thor was not that he got pummeled but rather that he did nothing EXCEPT getting pummeled. Do you see the difference? And yes, a person not showing any skill while they're getting pounded to death is pretty much the same thing as showing a person doesn't have skill. I mean, how else are you going to show someone having skill other than, you know, show it? Thor forgets he has the lightning the second he is shocked by Goldblum's character, he hadn't mastered his powers, he could use them during his fight with Hulk after his initial outburst for the remainder of the fight then not again until his vision of Odin reminds him what he is the god of again, Thor didn't fight back watch then have an instinctive reaction against Hulk, in Endgame instead of summoning lightning he summoned Stormbreaker and paid for it, he did try to fight back he just couldn't, and again Thor got hit with like 4 or 5 rapid shots against Thanos that is it, compared to the dozen or more hammer fist blows h took from the much slower Hulk.
So this isn't lowering Thor's standards, that implies he is worse than ever, he isn't he just doesn't get something epic to counter his failings, that's them not showcasing Thor well, it is not lowering his abilities, and it's not unbelievable he was in that situation either.
And how else do show his skills? well you don't, but you imply it, the fact Thor had no issue with anyone but Thanos tells you what level he is on regardless of the showcasing, had Thor been getting slapped around by an Outrider or whatever they were called then fair enough, that is something Thor never had happen to him, but you have literally harped on 5 seconds of a fight scene as if it shits on the characters entire skill level, and now I have pointed out he took worse and looked less effective at a point against Hulk you are making excuse as to why that doesn't count, you dislike how Thor got used, that's fair but you aren't justifying why you dislike it with this argument.
Nah, I've justified it multiple times over, you're just not listening. Let me break it down for you: vs Hulk: 1. Thor was reluctant to fight Hulk and multiple times tried to reason with Hulk 2. Still gave Hulk a fight even though Hulk was more intent on hurting him than the other way around, and this was without Mjolnir, Stormbreaker or any lightning powers on Thor's part 3. Prior to getting laid on his back, was actually winning the fight 4. Got ground and pounded by Hulk 5. Fought Hulk off despite being ground and pounded, used his lightning powers which nearly knocked Hulk out after 2 blows 6. Only lost because Grandmaster intervened compare that to his fight vs. Thanos: 1. Thor had no hesitation to fight Thanos 2. Was unable to give Thanos a good fight despite having Stormbreaker, Mjolnir and his full lightning powers. 3. didn't even land a single blow on Thanos IIRC 4. Got completely beat up by Thanos 5. Was unable to extract himself from the beating Thanos was giving 6. Only survived because Captain America intervened Do you see the difference now? You keep focusing on that small portion of the Hulk fight where Hulk had the advantage but then disregard the rest of the fight, whereas I'm considering the entirety of their fights and Thor's performance in them. You keep focusing on how Thor got hit multiple times in the face vs. Hulk and compare it to how Thanos hit him multiple times in the face, completely ignoring the fact that Thor was able to blast Hulk off him and stop that beating whereas he didn't do a single thing to stop Thanos beating him up. And it's not like I'm limiting it to those fights only. I previously asked you to show a scene from Endgame where you believed Thor displayed more skill. You complain I only harp about that 5 second fight. Fine, show me a better fight from Thor in Endgame. As for not getting slapped around by Outriders, please. Nobody was getting slapped around by outriders, even humans like Okoye and M'Baku were doing fine against them. Thor defeating outriders is no proof of his skill, as even a lowly Asgardian farmer is way stronger and tougher than any trained human. The outriders shouldn't be strong enough to hurt him even if he just lay there in a drunken stupor.
|
|
thenolan
Sophomore
@thenolan
Posts: 778
Likes: 162
|
Post by thenolan on Jul 30, 2019 17:02:48 GMT
Why get all fat and turn into the total goof ball? He ruined 2/3 of the movie.
Why are people defending this far thor shit?
|
|
|
|
Post by kleinreturns on Jul 30, 2019 18:38:41 GMT
Bro Thor redeems himself on the battlefield in the last act of the film by showing that he is still one of Asgard's strongest and skilled fighters. I disagree with this last part. He beat up a few random fodder (whom even regular humans like Okoye were beating up) but didn't really have any decent fighting feats outside of that. He got his ass completely stomped by Thanos when Wanda and Carol almost defeated Thanos. Well i didn't have a problem with Thanos beating Thor in the Final fight. Wanda defeated Thor back in AOU with her magic, and Carol is Captain Marvel.
|
|
|
|
Post by ThatGuy on Jul 30, 2019 18:42:29 GMT
Um... Steve used Mjolnir... And Steve did use lightning. The curse on the hammer is for when the person is wielding the hammer. And that's what Thor thought the entire time. That the hammer is what gave him his power. But what Odin did was put an enchantment on Mjolnir that put a copy of Thor's powers into the hammer. "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." is the enchantment. "Possess the power of Thor." It doesn't end with "shall use the hammer." And Steve had the power on him to call Stormbreaker and Mjolnir. Since he can retrieve Mjolnir. It was a long movie, but I saw it twice My memory is the lightning Steve used went through Mjolnir, not through Steve's body. Actually, Thor's mother is Gaia so he also has had some powers over earth (earthquakes) by some authors. So you are saying that he is using the lightning. It's not just randomly coming out of the hammer. He's controlling the lightning, right? Steve is causing the lightning to shoot out of the hammer. Steve is... while using the hammer... making the lightning come out. This is what we are saying? He's using the power of Thor, right? The hammer is just a focus for Thor using lightning. The lightning that Thor creates doesn't actually come from the hammer. That right?
|
|
|
|
Post by ThatGuy on Jul 30, 2019 18:47:25 GMT
To be more tactical. Like I said Thor goes for the big swings. He goes for the KO 1st. But at the same time, it's mostly when he has Mjolnir or Stormbreaker. Thor is the type that would go through the wall instead of a window or trying the door. lol Going for a KO does not make one a brute. In fact, it's one of the smartest things to do. You want to take out your opponent as fast as you can, not dance around with them. Even Captain America who is considered one of the best fighters in the MCU normally takes out fodder in about 1-3 hits. He only goes more than that when he's faced with a skilled fighter. Thor is no different in this regard. He'll go for a KO if he can with one hit, but against difficult opponents like Loki and Hulk he'll use a variety of hits to get the job done. A brute fighter is someone who tries to win a fight by pure strength, toughness and aggressiveness. Someone who has very little skill or finesse. Someone like Hulk or even Jessica Jones. Dodging and ducking attacks on the other hand is a very hard skill to learn. Way way easier to learn how to throw complex punch combinations and spinning heel kicks than to learn how to properly dodge attacks in actual combat. Anyone who can easily duck/dodge hits like Thor does in the movie is way too skilled to be referred to as a brute fighter. Does this look like a brute fighter to you? I think I've said many times it is when he is using Mjolnir or Stormbreaker (something he does most of the time). The very first thing he does in that clip was drop Mjolnir. Show me a clip of him fighting that way with Mjolnir or Stormbreaker. His main weapons. Also, in that clip he's fighting random thugs that he can beat up on with finesse.
Here you go.
You know what? Ragnarok was the movie that made him more inventive with how he fights (with Mjolnir). He did stuff with it like kicking up the ground in the 1st Thor, but it was mostly heavy swings then shooting the lightning. Other than that he's doubling up with others to show his tactical side (when using the hammer).
|
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 30, 2019 19:03:13 GMT
Going for a KO does not make one a brute. In fact, it's one of the smartest things to do. You want to take out your opponent as fast as you can, not dance around with them. Even Captain America who is considered one of the best fighters in the MCU normally takes out fodder in about 1-3 hits. He only goes more than that when he's faced with a skilled fighter. Thor is no different in this regard. He'll go for a KO if he can with one hit, but against difficult opponents like Loki and Hulk he'll use a variety of hits to get the job done. A brute fighter is someone who tries to win a fight by pure strength, toughness and aggressiveness. Someone who has very little skill or finesse. Someone like Hulk or even Jessica Jones. Dodging and ducking attacks on the other hand is a very hard skill to learn. Way way easier to learn how to throw complex punch combinations and spinning heel kicks than to learn how to properly dodge attacks in actual combat. Anyone who can easily duck/dodge hits like Thor does in the movie is way too skilled to be referred to as a brute fighter. Does this look like a brute fighter to you? I think I've said many times it is when he is using Mjolnir or Stormbreaker (something he does most of the time). The very first thing he does in that clip was drop Mjolnir. Show me a clip of him fighting that way with Mjolnir or Stormbreaker. His main weapons. Also, in that clip he's fighting random thugs that he can beat up on with finesse.
Here you go.
What are you looking for? A clip where Thor uses his warhammer or battleaxe like a rapier? Because you know that's not going to happen. You use a warhammer or battleaxe the way it was meant to be, by swinging it and slamming it against an opponent. That doesn't make one a brute. It just means he knows how to use his weapon. Here's a clip of Loki vs. Thor where Thor uses Mjolnir to block hits from Loki: Here's a clip of Thor vs. Hulk where Thor uses a warhammer while ducking Hulk's blows and even leaping over them: This opening fight in AoU showcases Thor punching, kicking and grappling with Hydra soldiers despite having Mjolnir: We also know that Thor has blocked Chitauri laser blasts with Mjolnir before. Has used combinations of weapon attacks, hand to hand combat and lightning blasts against Frost Giants, surtur's minions and Thanos' army. So I still don't see how you can consider him a brute fighter.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 30, 2019 19:09:55 GMT
I disagree with this last part. He beat up a few random fodder (whom even regular humans like Okoye were beating up) but didn't really have any decent fighting feats outside of that. He got his ass completely stomped by Thanos when Wanda and Carol almost defeated Thanos. Well i didn't have a problem with Thanos beating Thor in the Final fight. Wanda defeated Thor back in AOU with her magic, and Carol is Captain Marvel.
Technically, Wanda never defeated Thor because Thor never tried to fight her. Wanda snuck up on him, mind whammied him and then disappeared. There's no defeat because there was never a fight.
|
|
|
|
Post by ThatGuy on Jul 30, 2019 19:19:07 GMT
I think I've said many times it is when he is using Mjolnir or Stormbreaker (something he does most of the time). The very first thing he does in that clip was drop Mjolnir. Show me a clip of him fighting that way with Mjolnir or Stormbreaker. His main weapons. Also, in that clip he's fighting random thugs that he can beat up on with finesse.
Here you go.
What are you looking for? A clip where Thor uses his warhammer or battleaxe like a rapier? Because you know that's not going to happen. You use a warhammer or battleaxe the way it was meant to be, by swinging it and slamming it against an opponent. That doesn't make one a brute. It just means he knows how to use his weapon. Here's a clip of Loki vs. Thor where Thor uses Mjolnir to block hits from Loki: Here's a clip of Thor vs. Hulk where Thor uses a warhammer while ducking Hulk's blows and even leaping over them: This opening fight in AoU showcases Thor punching, kicking and grappling with Hydra soldiers despite having Mjolnir: We also know that Thor has blocked Chitauri laser blasts with Mjolnir before. Has used combinations of weapon attacks, hand to hand combat and lightning blasts against Frost Giants, surtur's minions and Thanos' army. So I still don't see how you can consider him a brute fighter. No, I'm looking for a character to be inventive with how he uses his weapon. Steve doesn't just block things coming at him or use the shield to slam into a person. He's inventive with how he uses it. Also, look at how inventive Steve was with Mjolnir. Like I said in an edit to my previous post, he doesn't get truly inventive with Mjolnir until Ragnarok. He kicked up the ground in the 1st Thor and that's about it. When I think of Thor, it's like this.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 30, 2019 19:32:47 GMT
What are you looking for? A clip where Thor uses his warhammer or battleaxe like a rapier? Because you know that's not going to happen. You use a warhammer or battleaxe the way it was meant to be, by swinging it and slamming it against an opponent. That doesn't make one a brute. It just means he knows how to use his weapon. Here's a clip of Loki vs. Thor where Thor uses Mjolnir to block hits from Loki: Here's a clip of Thor vs. Hulk where Thor uses a warhammer while ducking Hulk's blows and even leaping over them: This opening fight in AoU showcases Thor punching, kicking and grappling with Hydra soldiers despite having Mjolnir: We also know that Thor has blocked Chitauri laser blasts with Mjolnir before. Has used combinations of weapon attacks, hand to hand combat and lightning blasts against Frost Giants, surtur's minions and Thanos' army. So I still don't see how you can consider him a brute fighter. No, I'm looking for a character to be inventive with how he uses his weapon. Steve doesn't just block things coming at him or use the shield to slam into a person. He's inventive with how he uses it. Also, look at how inventive Steve was with Mjolnir. Like I said in an edit to my previous post, he doesn't get truly inventive with Mjolnir until Ragnarok. He kicked up the ground in the 1st Thor and that's about it. When I think of Thor, it's like this.
Yeah, but now you're moving goalposts. Being inventive/not-inventive is not the same thing as being a brute fighter/not a brute fighter. Manny Pacquiao is not exactly inventive with his moves, that doesn't mean he's unskilled. It certainly doesn't make him a brute fighter. A person who uses a warhammer skillfully, the way one is meant to use a warhammer without being creative with its use, is still a skilled fighter. As I mentioned before, and with all due respect, I don't think you know what "fighting like a brute" means. Besides, Thor uses his hammer like a projectile (warhammers are not usually used as projectiles), uses it as a shield (warhammers are not meant to be used as shields), uses it to aid in grappling (like he did against Hulk), uses it to clear enemies around him, or create whirlwinds, or shockwaves or even as a way to stop someone from moving. Majority of these you never see Cap do with Mjolnir. So I don't see why you don't think he's creative. I think what you really mean to say is, Thor is not a flashy fighter. He doesn't have flashy moves. With that I can agree with. But saying he's unskilled, well, that's just completely wrong. As for the clip you posted, while it was an entertaining clip, it's nowhere near how Thor fights. Show me someone ducking and dodging attacks and making slap combinations then we might be getting somehwere.
|
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Jul 30, 2019 19:48:56 GMT
Thor forgets he has the lightning the second he is shocked by Goldblum's character, he hadn't mastered his powers, he could use them during his fight with Hulk after his initial outburst for the remainder of the fight then not again until his vision of Odin reminds him what he is the god of again, Thor didn't fight back watch then have an instinctive reaction against Hulk, in Endgame instead of summoning lightning he summoned Stormbreaker and paid for it, he did try to fight back he just couldn't, and again Thor got hit with like 4 or 5 rapid shots against Thanos that is it, compared to the dozen or more hammer fist blows h took from the much slower Hulk.
So this isn't lowering Thor's standards, that implies he is worse than ever, he isn't he just doesn't get something epic to counter his failings, that's them not showcasing Thor well, it is not lowering his abilities, and it's not unbelievable he was in that situation either.
And how else do show his skills? well you don't, but you imply it, the fact Thor had no issue with anyone but Thanos tells you what level he is on regardless of the showcasing, had Thor been getting slapped around by an Outrider or whatever they were called then fair enough, that is something Thor never had happen to him, but you have literally harped on 5 seconds of a fight scene as if it shits on the characters entire skill level, and now I have pointed out he took worse and looked less effective at a point against Hulk you are making excuse as to why that doesn't count, you dislike how Thor got used, that's fair but you aren't justifying why you dislike it with this argument.
Nah, I've justified it multiple times over, you're just not listening. Let me break it down for you: vs Hulk: 1. Thor was reluctant to fight Hulk and multiple times tried to reason with Hulk 2. Still gave Hulk a fight even though Hulk was more intent on hurting him than the other way around, and this was without Mjolnir, Stormbreaker or any lightning powers on Thor's part 3. Prior to getting laid on his back, was actually winning the fight 4. Got ground and pounded by Hulk 5. Fought Hulk off despite being ground and pounded, used his lightning powers which nearly knocked Hulk out after 2 blows 6. Only lost because Grandmaster intervened compare that to his fight vs. Thanos: 1. Thor had no hesitation to fight Thanos 2. Was unable to give Thanos a good fight despite having Stormbreaker, Mjolnir and his full lightning powers. 3. didn't even land a single blow on Thanos IIRC 4. Got completely beat up by Thanos 5. Was unable to extract himself from the beating Thanos was giving 6. Only survived because Captain America intervened Do you see the difference now? You keep focusing on that small portion of the Hulk fight where Hulk had the advantage but then disregard the rest of the fight, whereas I'm considering the entirety of their fights and Thor's performance in them. You keep focusing on how Thor got hit multiple times in the face vs. Hulk and compare it to how Thanos hit him multiple times in the face, completely ignoring the fact that Thor was able to blast Hulk off him and stop that beating whereas he didn't do a single thing to stop Thanos beating him up. And it's not like I'm limiting it to those fights only. I previously asked you to show a scene from Endgame where you believed Thor displayed more skill. You complain I only harp about that 5 second fight. Fine, show me a better fight from Thor in Endgame. As for not getting slapped around by Outriders, please. Nobody was getting slapped around by outriders, even humans like Okoye and M'Baku were doing fine against them. Thor defeating outriders is no proof of his skill, as even a lowly Asgardian farmer is way stronger and tougher than any trained human. The outriders shouldn't be strong enough to hurt him even if he just lay there in a drunken stupor. No you fucking haven't jesus Christ mate, you are not justifying a lack of skill by Thor, that is all just examples of Thor not shining, that's a difference, you are saying they lowered Thor to worse than he has ever been which being fat and depressed shouldn't account for, but it should, and it didn't, as Thor HAS been pummelled before, Thor HAS left himself open, saying oh because Thor at his WORST his absolute fucking worst overall condition we have ever seen him in got pummelled for 6 seconds by the toughest most feared mother fucker in the ENTIRE MCU proves Thor was reduced in his skill is insane, they only showed the lows of Thor this time fight wise, but they didn't lower his ability, there is a difference.
Thor wasn't hesitant to fight Hulk when Hulk gave him the uppercut and pummelled him, Thor got in tat position after beating on Hulk, Hulk caught the hammer and Thor stood their dumbstruck going oops, he didn't defend himself from a obvious attack and after it he was rocked enough for Hulk to pummel him for way longer than Thanos, Hulk is also an inferior fighter to Thanos so if Hulk can do this to Thor so can Thanos, it's actually more embarrassing and deriding of Thor's skill that Hulk did this to him.
Thor doesn't necessarily have mastery over his lightning, as we saw in Ragnarok Thor first uses it instinctively when beaten to near unconsciousness, afterwards he forgets it until Hela almost kills him, both required him to have visions of Odin and somewhat out of body experiences to initiate, doesn't mean he had mastery over dick.
You are mistaking me saying Thor wasn't taken below a level of skill already set up for him, nothing happened to Thor here that never happened before to him, but that IS what YOU are claiming, it's not bloody true, the Thor was made to look less impressive than in previous films I do not argue with but they are different points, they just didn't give Thor a redeeming moment in this film, it happens all the time in movies and TV shows about groups, not everyone can be made to be the best at all times, sometimes to showcase one character you have the ignore the other, this happens in most of the superhero animated shows or movies, how often does Superman get used to establish how dangerous someone is then one of the other characters deals with the threat? just because Superman didn't get his shine back doesn't mean they reduced his characters power level or abilities, it just meant Superman didn't need the spotlight in that instance.
But whatever I am done arguing this with you, you say I refuse to listen but imo that's what you are doing, we see it from different points of view I guess, nothing you have said alters my opinion, and nothing I have said altered yours, don't know if that's due to use both being pig headed or bad salesmen? oh well.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Jul 30, 2019 20:06:07 GMT
Nah, I've justified it multiple times over, you're just not listening. Let me break it down for you: vs Hulk: 1. Thor was reluctant to fight Hulk and multiple times tried to reason with Hulk 2. Still gave Hulk a fight even though Hulk was more intent on hurting him than the other way around, and this was without Mjolnir, Stormbreaker or any lightning powers on Thor's part 3. Prior to getting laid on his back, was actually winning the fight 4. Got ground and pounded by Hulk 5. Fought Hulk off despite being ground and pounded, used his lightning powers which nearly knocked Hulk out after 2 blows 6. Only lost because Grandmaster intervened compare that to his fight vs. Thanos: 1. Thor had no hesitation to fight Thanos 2. Was unable to give Thanos a good fight despite having Stormbreaker, Mjolnir and his full lightning powers. 3. didn't even land a single blow on Thanos IIRC 4. Got completely beat up by Thanos 5. Was unable to extract himself from the beating Thanos was giving 6. Only survived because Captain America intervened Do you see the difference now? You keep focusing on that small portion of the Hulk fight where Hulk had the advantage but then disregard the rest of the fight, whereas I'm considering the entirety of their fights and Thor's performance in them. You keep focusing on how Thor got hit multiple times in the face vs. Hulk and compare it to how Thanos hit him multiple times in the face, completely ignoring the fact that Thor was able to blast Hulk off him and stop that beating whereas he didn't do a single thing to stop Thanos beating him up. And it's not like I'm limiting it to those fights only. I previously asked you to show a scene from Endgame where you believed Thor displayed more skill. You complain I only harp about that 5 second fight. Fine, show me a better fight from Thor in Endgame. As for not getting slapped around by Outriders, please. Nobody was getting slapped around by outriders, even humans like Okoye and M'Baku were doing fine against them. Thor defeating outriders is no proof of his skill, as even a lowly Asgardian farmer is way stronger and tougher than any trained human. The outriders shouldn't be strong enough to hurt him even if he just lay there in a drunken stupor. No you fucking haven't jesus Christ mate, you are not justifying a lack of skill by Thor, that is all just examples of Thor not shining, that's a difference, you are saying they lowered Thor to worse than he has ever been which being fat and depressed shouldn't account for, but it should, and it didn't, as Thor HAS been pummelled before, Thor HAS left himself open, saying oh because Thor at his WORST his absolute fucking worst overall condition we have ever seen him in got pummelled for 6 seconds by the toughest most feared mother fucker in the ENTIRE MCU proves Thor was reduced in his skill is insane, they only showed the lows of Thor this time fight wise, but they didn't lower his ability, there is a difference.
Thor wasn't hesitant to fight Hulk when Hulk gave him the uppercut and pummelled him, Thor got in tat position after beating on Hulk, Hulk caught the hammer and Thor stood their dumbstruck going oops, he didn't defend himself from a obvious attack and after it he was rocked enough for Hulk to pummel him for way longer than Thanos, Hulk is also an inferior fighter to Thanos so if Hulk can do this to Thor so can Thanos, it's actually more embarrassing and deriding of Thor's skill that Hulk did this to him.
Thor doesn't necessarily have mastery over his lightning, as we saw in Ragnarok Thor first uses it instinctively when beaten to near unconsciousness, afterwards he forgets it until Hela almost kills him, both required him to have visions of Odin and somewhat out of body experiences to initiate, doesn't mean he had mastery over dick.
You are mistaking me saying Thor wasn't taken below a level of skill already set up for him, nothing happened to Thor here that never happened before to him, but that IS what YOU are claiming, it's not bloody true, the Thor was made to look less impressive than in previous films I do not argue with but they are different points, they just didn't give Thor a redeeming moment in this film, it happens all the time in movies and TV shows about groups, not everyone can be made to be the best at all times, sometimes to showcase one character you have the ignore the other, this happens in most of the superhero animated shows or movies, how often does Superman get used to establish how dangerous someone is then one of the other characters deals with the threat? just because Superman didn't get his shine back doesn't mean they reduced his characters power level or abilities, it just meant Superman didn't need the spotlight in that instance.
But whatever I am done arguing this with you, you say I refuse to listen but imo that's what you are doing, we see it from different points of view I guess, nothing you have said alters my opinion, and nothing I have said altered yours, don't know if that's due to use both being pig headed or bad salesmen? oh well. I'm going to say this slowly, again, so you can hopefully get it. The issue is not that Thor got pummelled. Please stop zeroing in on that because that was never what I said. The issue is whether or not he was able to do anything other than get pummeled. I never claimed Thor was unhittable. It is what he does before and after he gets hit that I'm talking about. Did he get pummelled by both Hulk and Thanos? Yes, but that's where the similarity ends. Was he able to land shots on Hulk before that? Yes. Did he land shots on Thanos before that? No. Was he able to fight back after getting pummelled? Against Hulk yes. Against Thanos no. Did he use tactics and other moves against his opponents? Against Hulk, yes. Against Thanos, no. It is not that hard to see the difference here. And I think it was pretty clear at the end of Ragnarok that Thor had mastered his lightning powers, which means he had already mastered it by the time he fought Thanos whereas he hadn't mastered it yet when he fought Hulk. Actually, something did happen to Thor here that had never happened to him before. Thor has never been in a fight before where he was made to look completely helpless like he did against Thanos. The closest you get was when he went up against Kurse and was clearly outclassed. But even then he still tried to launch punches even while getting choked and tried to cover up against getting hit. He never just got beat up like this without putting up much of a fight. I'd also like to point out that I never said Hulk was as skilled as Thanos. Need I remind you that you were the one who brought Hulk into this discussion in the first place. But if Hulk was fast enough to land a few hits against Thanos, and Thor is faster and more skilled than Hulk, you'd expect that Thor would at least be able to do something other than be a punching bag. Especially since Thor has the ability to fly and shoot lightning which are things Hulk never had. In the end, the fact remains that they dumbed down Thor tremendously, to a point where it's no longer realistic. Even an out of shape Thor could have simply shot Thanos with lightning. He certainly had no issues doing so in IW. So why didn't he do it in Endgame? Because the writers didn't want him to. Plain and simple. Being out of shape will make you slower, weaker, less fit, etc. It shouldn't make you into a complete retard.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 2:25:00 GMT
So I saw Endgame last night so since I started this thread I wanted to address my own opinion on the entire fat Thor "issue". Personally I thought that it fit the story. I can understand why Thor would feel like he let everyone down because he indeed does feel like he is the Strongest Avenger and he felt that it was likely on his shoulders to take out Thanos. Him just closing himself off after he killed Thanos knowing that nothing more can be done but to live with his failure felt genuine to me. I will say that the movie did try and play on it too much as comedic from other characters. The one part that I will point to is the "cheese whiz" line from Rhodey. Thor should have lifted Rhodey from his neck and straightened shit out. Rhodey hasn't earned the right to talk to Thor that way imo. Had it come from Tony I'd have forgiven it a bit but where the fuck does Rhodey get off saying something like that to Thor? It's not like they've spent so much time together for us to really feel like there is a friendship. Instead it just seemed like Rhodey is being a dbag and Thor in that mind set should have threatened him more so than a finger wag you'd give to your brother.
So I liked where they were going with it but I think they took it with 1 or maybe 2 jokes too far while it could have been addressed more seriously at times. At least they didn't have him piss his pants or something for a "cheap laugh".
I do have a couple questions though in terms of the movie itself. During the final fight where did Rhodey randomly get that new armor? He got out of his old one and helped Rocket and then he randomly has new armor for the battle. Did I miss something?
Also, who was the guy with black hair at the funeral that they showed before panning to Maria Hill? I want to say it was a guy standing alone between them showing either Wanda or the Guardians and then going to Maria. It played as if he was somebody I should know but no clue.
Overall I think the movie was alright. I solid 6.5/10 or so. I definitely liked Infinity War better.
|
|
|
|
Post by dazz on Jul 31, 2019 3:20:32 GMT
So I saw Endgame last night so since I started this thread I wanted to address my own opinion on the entire fat Thor "issue". Personally I thought that it fit the story. I can understand why Thor would feel like he let everyone down because he indeed does feel like he is the Strongest Avenger and he felt that it was likely on his shoulders to take out Thanos. Him just closing himself off after he killed Thanos knowing that nothing more can be done but to live with his failure felt genuine to me. I will say that the movie did try and play on it too much as comedic from other characters. The one part that I will point to is the "cheese whiz" line from Rhodey. Thor should have lifted Rhodey from his neck and straightened shit out. Rhodey hasn't earned the right to talk to Thor that way imo. Had it come from Tony I'd have forgiven it a bit but where the fuck does Rhodey get off saying something like that to Thor? It's not like they've spent so much time together for us to really feel like there is a friendship. Instead it just seemed like Rhodey is being a dbag and Thor in that mind set should have threatened him more so than a finger wag you'd give to your brother. So I liked where they were going with it but I think they took it with 1 or maybe 2 jokes too far while it could have been addressed more seriously at times. At least they didn't have him piss his pants or something for a "cheap laugh". I do have a couple questions though in terms of the movie itself. During the final fight where did Rhodey randomly get that new armor? He got out of his old one and helped Rocket and then he randomly has new armor for the battle. Did I miss something? Also, who was the guy with black hair at the funeral that they showed before panning to Maria Hill? I want to say it was a guy standing alone between them showing either Wanda or the Guardians and then going to Maria. It played as if he was somebody I should know but no clue. Overall I think the movie was alright. I solid 6.5/10 or so. I definitely liked Infinity War better. I agree about the cheese whiz thing, that should have been Tony or Rocket, just because out of the two they seem like the ones most likely to have the sack to say that to Thor and for Thor not let it slide, they could have had Rocket say it but not know what it's called then Rhodey says it which gets the "hey now" look from Thor to Rhodey because then Rhodey hadn't actually insulted Thor he had just answered Rocket, same result but not so out of place for Rhodey to say such a thing.
The person I think you are referring to is the kid that's behind Wanda, Bucky & Sam but infront of Maria right? that's the kid from IM3, which would have worked maybe had the kid not gotten so much older that people didn't recognise him.
As for the new suit they were at the Avengers compound, and Tony usually recycles old tech to other suits, so wouldn't be a surprise if Tony had built Rhodey a small armory of suits which Rhodey could order in via the AI like Tony did in IM3 & AoU, which would make sense to be located under the compound like Tony's were at his house you know, but they never explained it, just it doesn't take a big leap to figure a reasonable explanation.
Though anyone else wondering how much of the Pym particles they stole for Antman to be shifting from little to big like he did, he ran out of his own supply doing the time heist, then again how much does he use to go Quantum vs. Ant or Giant sized?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 3:28:24 GMT
So I saw Endgame last night so since I started this thread I wanted to address my own opinion on the entire fat Thor "issue". Personally I thought that it fit the story. I can understand why Thor would feel like he let everyone down because he indeed does feel like he is the Strongest Avenger and he felt that it was likely on his shoulders to take out Thanos. Him just closing himself off after he killed Thanos knowing that nothing more can be done but to live with his failure felt genuine to me. I will say that the movie did try and play on it too much as comedic from other characters. The one part that I will point to is the "cheese whiz" line from Rhodey. Thor should have lifted Rhodey from his neck and straightened shit out. Rhodey hasn't earned the right to talk to Thor that way imo. Had it come from Tony I'd have forgiven it a bit but where the fuck does Rhodey get off saying something like that to Thor? It's not like they've spent so much time together for us to really feel like there is a friendship. Instead it just seemed like Rhodey is being a dbag and Thor in that mind set should have threatened him more so than a finger wag you'd give to your brother. So I liked where they were going with it but I think they took it with 1 or maybe 2 jokes too far while it could have been addressed more seriously at times. At least they didn't have him piss his pants or something for a "cheap laugh". I do have a couple questions though in terms of the movie itself. During the final fight where did Rhodey randomly get that new armor? He got out of his old one and helped Rocket and then he randomly has new armor for the battle. Did I miss something? Also, who was the guy with black hair at the funeral that they showed before panning to Maria Hill? I want to say it was a guy standing alone between them showing either Wanda or the Guardians and then going to Maria. It played as if he was somebody I should know but no clue. Overall I think the movie was alright. I solid 6.5/10 or so. I definitely liked Infinity War better. I agree about the cheese whiz thing, that should have been Tony or Rocket, just because out of the two they seem like the ones most likely to have the sack to say that to Thor and for Thor not let it slide, they could have had Rocket say it but not know what it's called then Rhodey says it which gets the "hey now" look from Thor to Rhodey because then Rhodey hadn't actually insulted Thor he had just answered Rocket, same result but not so out of place for Rhodey to say such a thing.
The person I think you are referring to is the kid that's behind Wanda, Bucky & Sam but infront of Maria right? that's the kid from IM3, which would have worked maybe had the kid not gotten so much older that people didn't recognise him.
As for the new suit they were at the Avengers compound, and Tony usually recycles old tech to other suits, so wouldn't be a surprise if Tony had built Rhodey a small armory of suits which Rhodey could order in via the AI like Tony did in IM3 & AoU, which would make sense to be located under the compound like Tony's were at his house you know, but they never explained it, just it doesn't take a big leap to figure a reasonable explanation.
Though anyone else wondering how much of the Pym particles they stole for Antman to be shifting from little to big like he did, he ran out of his own supply doing the time heist, then again how much does he use to go Quantum vs. Ant or Giant sized?
Yeah Rhodey saying it just didn't feel earned. Like, where does he get off talking to Thor like that? He's Tony's friend more so than anybody else's. Rocket I agree with as he and Thor at least have shown to have spent time together and are friends to the extent that Rocket will admit it anyway. Was that the kid from IM3? I honestly don't remember what he looked like. Not that it would matter a good, what? 10 years later? I wouldn't have recognized him at all. That's as good of an assumption/guess is any. I assumed he was able to just access the suit somewhere along the way but I was just wondering if I missed something or if they did just have him show up with it and left it to us as viewers to assume what happened. The Pym particles thing. I think Cap took 4 vial's? 2 for he and Tony to return to present time and 1 for Cap to return the stones. That would leave 1 left for Giant Man? Fuck if I know. No idea how much is used for any certain task.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vassaggo on Jul 31, 2019 11:59:02 GMT
Got to say dazz, ThatGuy, merh, Lord Death Man, Skaathar your debate in this thread was a good read. I don't know who I agree with, but an excellent debate. And by god no one got uber pissy and started throwing a tantrum. When it comes to the question of why Thor never broke down in previous movies like the did in Endgame I have a personal anecdote. I have Chronic Depression. I was jut born with it. It's called Dysthymia or mild, Chronic Depression. I've been taking meds for it since I was like 20. I look at it like having diabetes or high blood pressure. It's a disease. To be diagnosed you have to have symptoms last past 2 years. Think of Dysthymia as a marathon runner. It's in it for the long haul , luckily it's very mild symptoms over long period of time. . Now on top of that, every once in a while, I have a Episode of Major Depression Disorder on top of the Dysthymia. Major Depression Episode is an acute attack last weeks or months. It's a sprinter to Dysthymia's marathon. It's roots are in the same physiological and psychological pathways as Dysthymia but is usually triggered by outside stimuli. (loss of loved ones, job, stress etc) I think of Dysthymia as an engine and Major Depression as a turbo charger. The clinical name of having Dysthmyia and a episode of MDD is Double Depression. I'm getting long winded so I'll get to the point. I don't think Thor has Dysthymia, but he certainly has they symptoms of Major Depression Disorder. The triggering of MDD can be one big thing or an accumulation over time of psychological pressure. This is how they handled Thors depression. He survived and didn't get depressed when he lost his Mother, Brother's betrayal, break up with Jane, Asgaurd's destruction, etc etc. It was a build up and accumalation of life altering experiences. The failure to stop Thanos with a head shot was the last little push he needed. Now my experience is different because I have the underlining problem on top of Major Depression. MDD has to last 2 weeks to be diagnosed but there's no upper limit on how long it lasts. They portrayed Thor's depression accurately IMHO. Here are the symptoms of an Episode of Major Depression: Feelings of sadness, tearfulness, emptiness or hopelessness Angry outbursts, irritability or frustration, even over small matters
Loss of interest or pleasure in most or all normal activities, such as sex, hobbies or sports Sleep disturbances, including insomnia or sleeping too much Tiredness and lack of energy, so even small tasks take extra effort
Reduced appetite and weight loss or increased cravings for food and weight gainAnxiety, agitation or restlessness Slowed thinking, speaking or body movementsFeelings of worthlessness or guilt, fixating on past failures or self-blame Trouble thinking, concentrating, making decisions and remembering thingsFrequent or recurrent thoughts of death, suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts or suicide Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headachesNow all the things bold are applicable to Thor's situation in EndGame and explain why he was out classed by everyone fighting. He may still have his instincts and training, but I can attest to the physical effect. You can't concentrate no matter how hard you try. You are foggy brained. You feel uncoordinated in your own body. It feels like it's not even your body. Almost like you are remotely controlling your movements but from a great distance. You are physically slower and things that you have done 1000 times feels alien to you. On top of that think of the most exhausted you've been in your life. During an episode of MDD you feel like you've ran a marathon just walking to the mailbox and back. And it's not just the your physical aptitude that is diminished greatly. It's mental also. It almost feels like Disassociate Dreaming. You are in a fog mentially, you can't concentrate no matter how hard you try. You forget things constantly. It feels like you are dreaming while you are awake. On top of not remembering anything sometimes you focus comes back with a vengeance randomly. So you go from walking around in a fog to hyper focused on 1 thing. So much so to the determent to yourself and people around you. So to me Thor's depression is valid. It took accumulating massive psyche trauma for Major Depression hit. Once it did hit the threshold it completely fucked his concentration, muscle memory, regular memory, executive function of the brain, and lots of physical attributes and functions. That's just my two cents. |
|
|
|
Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 31, 2019 14:54:27 GMT
Got to say dazz , ThatGuy , merh , Lord Death Man , Skaathar your debate in this thread was a good read. I don't know who I agree with, but an excellent debate. And by god no one got uber pissy and started throwing a tantrum. When it comes to the question of why Thor never broke down in previous movies like the did in Endgame I have a personal anecdote. I have Chronic Depression. I was jut born with it. It's called Dysthymia or mild, Chronic Depression. I've been taking meds for it since I was like 20. I look at it like having diabetes or high blood pressure. It's a disease. To be diagnosed you have to have symptoms last past 2 years. Think of Dysthymia as a marathon runner. It's in it for the long haul , luckily it's very mild symptoms over long period of time. . Now on top of that, every once in a while, I have a Episode of Major Depression Disorder on top of the Dysthymia. Major Depression Episode is an acute attack last weeks or months. It's a sprinter to Dysthymia's marathon. It's roots are in the same physiological and psychological pathways as Dysthymia but is usually triggered by outside stimuli. (loss of loved ones, job, stress etc) I think of Dysthymia as an engine and Major Depression as a turbo charger. The clinical name of having Dysthmyia and a episode of MDD is Double Depression. I'm getting long winded so I'll get to the point. I don't think Thor has Dysthymia, but he certainly has they symptoms of Major Depression Disorder. The triggering of MDD can be one big thing or an accumulation over time of psychological pressure. This is how they handled Thors depression. He survived and didn't get depressed when he lost his Mother, Brother's betrayal, break up with Jane, Asgaurd's destruction, etc etc. It was a build up and accumalation of life altering experiences. The failure to stop Thanos with a head shot was the last little push he needed. Now my experience is different because I have the underlining problem on top of Major Depression. MDD has to last 2 weeks to be diagnosed but there's no upper limit on how long it lasts. They portrayed Thor's depression accurately IMHO. Here are the symptoms of an Episode of Major Depression: Feelings of sadness, tearfulness, emptiness or hopelessness Angry outbursts, irritability or frustration, even over small matters
Loss of interest or pleasure in most or all normal activities, such as sex, hobbies or sports Sleep disturbances, including insomnia or sleeping too much Tiredness and lack of energy, so even small tasks take extra effort
Reduced appetite and weight loss or increased cravings for food and weight gainAnxiety, agitation or restlessness Slowed thinking, speaking or body movementsFeelings of worthlessness or guilt, fixating on past failures or self-blame Trouble thinking, concentrating, making decisions and remembering thingsFrequent or recurrent thoughts of death, suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts or suicide Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headachesNow all the things bold are applicable to Thor's situation in EndGame and explain why he was out classed by everyone fighting. He may still have his instincts and training, but I can attest to the physical effect. You can't concentrate no matter how hard you try. You are foggy brained. You feel uncoordinated in your own body. It feels like it's not even your body. Almost like you are remotely controlling your movements but from a great distance. You are physically slower and things that you have done 1000 times feels alien to you. On top of that think of the most exhausted you've been in your life. During an episode of MDD you feel like you've ran a marathon just walking to the mailbox and back. And it's not just the your physical aptitude that is diminished greatly. It's mental also. It almost feels like Disassociate Dreaming. You are in a fog mentially, you can't concentrate no matter how hard you try. You forget things constantly. It feels like you are dreaming while you are awake. On top of not remembering anything sometimes you focus comes back with a vengeance randomly. So you go from walking around in a fog to hyper focused on 1 thing. So much so to the determent to yourself and people around you. So to me Thor's depression is valid. It took accumulating massive psyche trauma for Major Depression hit. Once it did hit the threshold it completely fucked his concentration, muscle memory, regular memory, executive function of the brain, and lots of physical attributes and functions. That's just my two cents. Thanks for sharing. Hope you're managing your condition well enough to get the most that you can out of life. Putting aside the complexities of chronic mental illness for a moment, I want to say that I understand why many fans were upset with Thor's characterization in Endgame. His lack of fighting prowess and failure to maintain his body image must have seemed disrespectful to some fans. With characters who are as powerful as Thor, you eventually hit a wall in terms of what you can do with them without becoming repetitive. Thor suffered from this in the comic books under the tenure of several different writers. I, personally, don't mind Marvel breaking Thor down (although I do have minor issues with the comedic aspects of their approach).
|
|
|
|
Post by Vassaggo on Jul 31, 2019 16:07:56 GMT
Got to say dazz , ThatGuy , merh , Lord Death Man , Skaathar your debate in this thread was a good read. I don't know who I agree with, but an excellent debate. And by god no one got uber pissy and started throwing a tantrum. When it comes to the question of why Thor never broke down in previous movies like the did in Endgame I have a personal anecdote. I have Chronic Depression. I was jut born with it. It's called Dysthymia or mild, Chronic Depression. I've been taking meds for it since I was like 20. I look at it like having diabetes or high blood pressure. It's a disease. To be diagnosed you have to have symptoms last past 2 years. Think of Dysthymia as a marathon runner. It's in it for the long haul , luckily it's very mild symptoms over long period of time. . Now on top of that, every once in a while, I have a Episode of Major Depression Disorder on top of the Dysthymia. Major Depression Episode is an acute attack last weeks or months. It's a sprinter to Dysthymia's marathon. It's roots are in the same physiological and psychological pathways as Dysthymia but is usually triggered by outside stimuli. (loss of loved ones, job, stress etc) I think of Dysthymia as an engine and Major Depression as a turbo charger. The clinical name of having Dysthmyia and a episode of MDD is Double Depression. I'm getting long winded so I'll get to the point. I don't think Thor has Dysthymia, but he certainly has they symptoms of Major Depression Disorder. The triggering of MDD can be one big thing or an accumulation over time of psychological pressure. This is how they handled Thors depression. He survived and didn't get depressed when he lost his Mother, Brother's betrayal, break up with Jane, Asgaurd's destruction, etc etc. It was a build up and accumalation of life altering experiences. The failure to stop Thanos with a head shot was the last little push he needed. Now my experience is different because I have the underlining problem on top of Major Depression. MDD has to last 2 weeks to be diagnosed but there's no upper limit on how long it lasts. They portrayed Thor's depression accurately IMHO. Here are the symptoms of an Episode of Major Depression: Feelings of sadness, tearfulness, emptiness or hopelessness Angry outbursts, irritability or frustration, even over small matters
Loss of interest or pleasure in most or all normal activities, such as sex, hobbies or sports Sleep disturbances, including insomnia or sleeping too much Tiredness and lack of energy, so even small tasks take extra effort
Reduced appetite and weight loss or increased cravings for food and weight gainAnxiety, agitation or restlessness Slowed thinking, speaking or body movementsFeelings of worthlessness or guilt, fixating on past failures or self-blame Trouble thinking, concentrating, making decisions and remembering thingsFrequent or recurrent thoughts of death, suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts or suicide Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headachesNow all the things bold are applicable to Thor's situation in EndGame and explain why he was out classed by everyone fighting. He may still have his instincts and training, but I can attest to the physical effect. You can't concentrate no matter how hard you try. You are foggy brained. You feel uncoordinated in your own body. It feels like it's not even your body. Almost like you are remotely controlling your movements but from a great distance. You are physically slower and things that you have done 1000 times feels alien to you. On top of that think of the most exhausted you've been in your life. During an episode of MDD you feel like you've ran a marathon just walking to the mailbox and back. And it's not just the your physical aptitude that is diminished greatly. It's mental also. It almost feels like Disassociate Dreaming. You are in a fog mentially, you can't concentrate no matter how hard you try. You forget things constantly. It feels like you are dreaming while you are awake. On top of not remembering anything sometimes you focus comes back with a vengeance randomly. So you go from walking around in a fog to hyper focused on 1 thing. So much so to the determent to yourself and people around you. So to me Thor's depression is valid. It took accumulating massive psyche trauma for Major Depression hit. Once it did hit the threshold it completely fucked his concentration, muscle memory, regular memory, executive function of the brain, and lots of physical attributes and functions. That's just my two cents. Thanks for sharing. Hope you're managing your condition well enough to get the most that you can out of life. Putting aside the complexities of chronic mental illness for a moment, I want to say that I understand why many fans were upset with Thor's characterization in Endgame. His lack of fighting prowess and failure to maintain his body image must have seemed disrespectful to some fans. With characters who are as powerful as Thor, you eventually hit a wall in terms of what you can do with them without becoming repetitive. Thor suffered from this in the comic books under the tenure of several different writers. I, personally, don't mind Marvel breaking Thor down (although I do have minor issues with the comedic aspects of their approach). Thanks, I concur on the comedy aspect. I think they may have gone a step or two over the line. I don't mind using comedy as a foil or for juxtaposition versus tragedy. In this case they should've reigned it in a tad. Thor kind of runs into the same wall as Superman. Their power set is so OP that the character or story cannot built around it. The story has to be in spite of his powers.
|
|
