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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 23:30:40 GMT
I agree; if something is true (or not), it's going to remain true (or not) regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. However, you said you don't want it to be true, but that you believe it anyway because that's where the evidence led you. It's either a choice or it isn't. If the evidence is what's making you believe something despite your desire not to believe it, it isn't a choice. But here you are, saying you decide for yourself what to believe. Are you going to eat that cake or what? It is very possible to block out information that you realized was true at one point and go back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe. The choice to block it out fully is a choice, but once you are past the point where you don't even remember the truth anymore, but only what you want to believe that is no longer a choice. It is self-deception of the highest order. I realize looking back at your reply that we might be talking about something slightly different. Confirmation bias can be a vicious beast, and it's extremely prevalent.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:36:51 GMT
It is very possible to block out information that you realized was true at one point and go back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe. The choice to block it out fully is a choice, but once you are past the point where you don't even remember the truth anymore, but only what you want to believe that is no longer a choice. It is self-deception of the highest order. I realize looking back at your reply that we might be talking about something slightly different. Confirmation bias can be a vicious beast, and it's extremely prevalent. I don't even think I am talking about confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is when you look for the stuff you want to be true and ignore the stuff that goes against that. That isn't exactly what I am talking about.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 13, 2020 23:39:03 GMT
Oh, sure it is. If I wanted to tell myself that the pictures of the ISS aren't faked I certainly have the power to do so. You can tell yourself whatever you want to, but this is about whether or not you're choosing to believe it. No matter how much I want to believe that I'm not sitting at a desk right now composing a response to you, I just can't...at least not rationally. And I can tell myself that two plus two equals negative seven thousand, but I couldn't believe it. It is impossible to lie to oneself. Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:47:43 GMT
You can tell yourself whatever you want to, but this is about whether or not you're choosing to believe it. No matter how much I want to believe that I'm not sitting at a desk right now composing a response to you, I just can't...at least not rationally. And I can tell myself that two plus two equals negative seven thousand, but I couldn't believe it. It is impossible to lie to oneself. Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. You still reach a point where you either fully believe something or you don't. If someone is aware they are lying to their self then they don't actually believe it they just try really hard to believe it. Conspiracy theorists actually beleive the stuff they say in many cases. These people are irrational imo, but they do seem to actually believe what they claim to believe.
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 23:53:52 GMT
Confirmation bias can be a vicious beast, and it's extremely prevalent. I don't even think I am talking about confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is when you look for the stuff you want to be true and ignore the stuff that goes against that. That isn't exactly what I am talking about. Blocking out information that you realized was true at one point and going back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:57:13 GMT
I don't even think I am talking about confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is when you look for the stuff you want to be true and ignore the stuff that goes against that. That isn't exactly what I am talking about. Blocking out information that you realized was true at one point and going back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me. I'll accept that. I just didn't realize that still fell under the confirmation bias umbrella. Is suppressed memory (if it does in fact exist in the way we commonly think about it) confirmation bias?
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 23:58:19 GMT
You can tell yourself whatever you want to, but this is about whether or not you're choosing to believe it. No matter how much I want to believe that I'm not sitting at a desk right now composing a response to you, I just can't...at least not rationally. And I can tell myself that two plus two equals negative seven thousand, but I couldn't believe it. It is impossible to lie to oneself. Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. If you really believe the lies you tell yourself, you need help. After all, don't you know when you're telling a lie?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 14, 2020 0:00:00 GMT
Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. You still reach a point where you either fully believe something or you don't. If someone is aware they are lying to their self then they don't actually believe it they just try really hard to believe it. Conspiracy theorists actually beleive the stuff they say in many cases. These people are irrational imo, but they do seem to actually believe what they claim to believe. Irrational = people who don't lie to themselves just because they don't like what they're seeing? If you have a flat tire, you have a flat tire, no matter how much you would prefer not to see it.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 14, 2020 0:01:18 GMT
Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. If you really believe the lies you tell yourself, you need help. After all, don't you know when you're telling a lie?
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 0:05:41 GMT
Blocking out information that you realized was true at one point and going back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me. I'll accept that. I just didn't realize that still fell under the confirmation bias umbrella. It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 0:11:26 GMT
You still reach a point where you either fully believe something or you don't. If someone is aware they are lying to their self then they don't actually believe it they just try really hard to believe it. Conspiracy theorists actually beleive the stuff they say in many cases. These people are irrational imo, but they do seem to actually believe what they claim to believe. Irrational = people who don't lie to themselves just because they don't like what they're seeing?
If you have a flat tire, you have a flat tire, no matter how much you would prefer not to see it. No, that is rational. You either misunderstood what I was saying or I misunderstood what you were saying.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 14, 2020 0:11:38 GMT
I'll accept that. I just didn't realize that still fell under the confirmation bias umbrella. It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias. Exactly! About six times I've put up the link about babies born with both male and female genitalia, and the hospitals arbitrarily decide which gender the child is to be, and in most cases the parents are never informed. And it gets ignored......because people don't want to believe it.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 0:12:45 GMT
If you really believe the lies you tell yourself, you need help. After all, don't you know when you're telling a lie? Are you saying you can gaslight yourself? lol. If you truly believe that what you say is the truth when it isn't, you're merely wrong. And yes, you do know when you're lying and when you aren't, so to actually believe yourself when you know you're lying is to be in need of professional help.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 0:12:46 GMT
I'll accept that. I just didn't realize that still fell under the confirmation bias umbrella. It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias. I see the 2 as different, but that might just be my lack of me connecting the dots in my brain. I get confused sometimes.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 0:15:42 GMT
It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias. Exactly! About six times I've put up the link about babies born with both male and female genitalia, and the hospitals arbitrarily decide which gender the child is to be, and in most cases the parents are never informed. And it gets ignored......because people don't want to believe it. The exceptions don't make the rules. If you're not born a 50/50 hermaphrodite, you don't get to choose your gender and thus this discussion isn't about you.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 0:15:50 GMT
It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias. Exactly! About six times I've put up the link about babies born with both male and female genitalia, and the hospitals arbitrarily decide which gender the child is to be, and in most cases the parents are never informed.
And it gets ignored......because people don't want to believe it. You have to first provide proof that that is happening. One link isn't going to cut it. I am perfectly willing to believe that is happening, but I need multiple sources from multiple websites.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 0:16:39 GMT
Are you saying you can gaslight yourself? lol. If you truly believe that what you say is the truth when it isn't, you're merely wrong. And yes, you do know when you're lying and when you aren't, so to actually believe yourself when you know you're lying is to be in need of professional help. Prove it.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 0:17:47 GMT
It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias. I see the 2 as different, but that might just be my lack of me connecting the dots in my brain. I get confused sometimes. Nah, you just got ahead of the discussion. It's a vicious beast because of what it can make people truly and adamantly believe, even if it's not at all true.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 0:19:15 GMT
Are you saying you can gaslight yourself? lol. If you truly believe that what you say is the truth when it isn't, you're merely wrong. And yes, you do know when you're lying and when you aren't, so to actually believe yourself when you know you're lying is to be in need of professional help. Prove it. I already did: "If you truly believe that what you say is the truth when it isn't, you're merely wrong."Lies are intentional.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 0:20:44 GMT
I already did: "If you truly believe that what you say is the truth when it isn't, you're merely wrong."Lies are intentional. I think I forgot how the conversation started and how we got to this point.
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