The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 16, 2021 23:31:08 GMT
It's a matter of much debate of course but I think most people would agree a person is good if they do the following:
A) Go out of their way to help others
B) Do their best not to harm others
Maybe one could argue there's more to it than just these two components - maybe a good person would also seek virtues and avoid vices even if they neither help nor harm others. But I think it's safe to say that these two components form something of a minimum for goodness.
Personally, I reckon I'm pretty good at B. Over the last 6 months I've been actively trying to improve in this area, really analysing the harm my actions may cause beyond just surface appearance and trying to modify accordingly. Unfortunately, I'm pretty lousy when it comes to A. I'll generally do things for people when asked but I'm not terribly proactive about such things.
Which component is more important? Who do you think is the better person - someone who neither helps nor harms anyone, or someone who goes out of their way to help some but also doesn't care about hurting others?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 16, 2021 23:42:51 GMT
"Personally, I reckon I'm pretty good at B."
So utilitarianism?
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 16, 2021 23:56:13 GMT
"Personally, I reckon I'm pretty good at B." So utilitarianism? A utilitarian would countenance harming some if it helped more - ie sacrifice a little of B in exchange for a greater amount of A. |
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gw
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@gw
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Post by gw on Dec 17, 2021 2:21:53 GMT
I agree with both A and B. I think that there are deeper elements that we won't all agree on. We agree to not harm people who are already here but we don't all agree to indefinitely prolong human existence or the existence of our descendants as long as possible. I imagine that if there are aliens out there, which I suspect that there are, that they've decided to live at least a certain amount of time into the future.
In response to your final question, I don't have a definitive answer. I suppose you'd have to choose the latter depending on the specifics, especially if they do significantly more good things than bad. Just eating meat is clearly harmful to the creature being eaten but it's normal in nature or what's left of it. I'm looking to cut out meat, at least farm raised non-lab meat from my diet at some point just because of the harm that agriculture is doing to the ecosystem. I think that if we wish to be truly ethical that we have to question nature itself. Do we really want creatures to eat each other to sustain themselves? I suppose that we have to do something with the remains of the dead but should we allow for creatures to be eaten alive or stalked in hopes that they will soon fall dead? Humans may do many immoral things but we come from a long line of beings that have done the same. Our biggest folly is turning against our ecosystem, imperfect as it itself may be. We need to realize that we aren't fully self sustaining and that we need to allow other creatures and unconscious beings to live their own lives as well. For reasons both moral and practical, we need to view ourselves as a part of a bigger system than ourselves. And in the future we'll have to decide whether it goes with us if we colonize other planets or we leave Earth as the sun grows too large to sustain life here.
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Post by clusium on Dec 17, 2021 5:30:18 GMT
Try adhering to the 7 Lively Virtues:
1)Be humble,
2)Be patient,
3)Be charitable,
4)Be diligent,
5)Be chaste,
6)Be generous, &
7)Know when to abstain.
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Post by mystery on Dec 17, 2021 12:30:47 GMT
Personally, I'd say good people are selfless. There are a lot of people who only do good deeds and help others because they want attention and rewards for it. When people do good things for selfish reasons, then I think the egotism kind of cancels out the altruism angle. I do agree with not harming others, though.
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Post by clusium on Dec 17, 2021 14:57:46 GMT
Personally, I'd say good people are selfless. There are a lot of people who only do good deeds and help others because they want attention and rewards for it. When people do good things for selfish reasons, then I think the egotism kind of cancels out the altruism angle. I do agree with not harming others, though. That stems from the first virtue that I listed: 1)Be humble. To be humble is, among other things, completely selfless.
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Post by Isapop on Dec 17, 2021 15:31:32 GMT
"Personally, I reckon I'm pretty good at B." So utilitarianism? A utilitarian would countenance harming some if it helped more - ie sacrifice a little of B in exchange for a greater amount of A. The world may prefer to have that person who has done a lot of good for people even at the cost of a little bad. But I don't think it determines whether that person is actually a better person than someone who would help many people but lacks the resources to do so.
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 17, 2021 21:51:22 GMT
A utilitarian would countenance harming some if it helped more - ie sacrifice a little of B in exchange for a greater amount of A. The world may prefer to have that person who has done a lot of good for people even at the cost of a little bad. But I don't think it determines whether that person is actually a better person than someone who would help many people but lacks the resources to do so. Yes, I would agree with you there. Though I think many of us have the resources to help others at least a little more than we do. I always struggle at drawing a line between self care and selfishness. |
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 17, 2021 21:53:02 GMT
Personally, I'd say good people are selfless. There are a lot of people who only do good deeds and help others because they want attention and rewards for it. When people do good things for selfish reasons, then I think the egotism kind of cancels out the altruism angle. Agreed - the whole "don't let your left hand know what your right is doing" thing always struck a chord with me. |
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 0:08:54 GMT
My definition of a good person is someone who tries to avoid doing significant harm to people and also feels guilty about doing bad stuff when they do do it. Also someone who will help people in need and who will defend the truth and fight for equality.
This is not a black and white area and too many people try and make it that. This is especially the case with people who are in the spotlight, because we tend to only hear about the bad things they have done. The bad things people do makes for better TV unfortunately.
Where is the line between a good person and a bad person? That is the more interesting question.
I would say I am a combination of good and bad. I do good things and I do bad things, but I try to do more good than bad. Does that make me a good person? I don't know.
I think the majority of people are somewhere in the middle, but there are definitely people who are very good people and then there are very bad people. The extremes are usually in the minority.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 0:23:44 GMT
Try adhering to the 7 Lively Virtues: 1)Be humble, 2)Be patient, 3)Be charitable, 4)Be diligent, 5)Be chaste, 6)Be generous, & 7)Know when to abstain. Yikes. My score on those isn't very good. It is hard to admit to myself, but I am probably more of a bad person than a good person.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 0:27:31 GMT
Try adhering to the 7 Lively Virtues: 1)Be humble, 2)Be patient, 3)Be charitable, 4)Be diligent, 5)Be chaste, 6)Be generous, & 7)Know when to abstain. Yikes. My score on those isn't very good. It is hard to admit to myself, but I am probably more of a bad person than a good person. My score on those are not very good either. 
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 0:30:08 GMT
Yikes. My score on those isn't very good. It is hard to admit to myself, but I am probably more of a bad person than a good person. My score on those are not very good either. I agree that that is a good list to answer the question with. I wonder what the opposite list would be.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 2:32:43 GMT
I agree that that is a good list to answer the question with. I wonder what the opposite list would be. I agree with some of the seven deadly sins, but some not so much. Lust isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 2:47:52 GMT
My definition of a good person is someone who tries to avoid doing significant harm to people and also feels guilty about doing bad stuff when they do do it. Also someone who will help people in need and who will defend the truth and fight for equality. This is not a black and white area and too many people try and make it that. This is especially the case with people who are in the spotlight, because we tend to only hear about the bad things they have done. The bad things people do makes for better TV unfortunately. Where is the line between a good person and a bad person? That is the more interesting question. I would say I am a combination of good and bad. I do good things and I do bad things, but I try to do more good than bad. Does that make me a good person? I don't know. I think the majority of people are somewhere in the middle, but there are definitely people who are very good people and then there are very bad people. The extremes are usually in the minority. You should think of yourself as good person all the time who is not perfect. You are aware of failings and regret making mistakes, but know this is part of being a human being. That’s not bad, that’s good. And even the Bible says all creation is good. It says it over and over in Genesis Chapter One. But creation has flaws. Perfection is non-creative. It’s not what you do, but who you are, nor just about doing good deeds. Even the Devil can do good deeds. It’s about making the welfare of strangers as important to you as the people you know and love as well as yourself. My motto is: never meet a stranger. That is what I don't have the ability of even desire to do. I care to an extent and help where I can and if I am in the right mood, but I will always have a certain level of indifference. This doesn't mean I don't feel bad for people, just that they aren't me. It also very much depends on the day and what mood I am in.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 3:00:11 GMT
That is what I don't have the ability of even desire to do. I care to an extent and help where I can and if I am in the right mood, but I will always have a certain level of indifference. This doesn't mean I don't feel bad for people, just that they aren't me. It also very much depends on the day and what mood I am in. Keep working on it. But remember hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is. It was the casual indifference of the good people to the plight of Jews which ultimately led to the most horrific episode in human history. Indifference makes evil possible. I doubt you’re that indifferent. You don't understand. Life doesn't carry all that much meaning to me. When I am dead nothing will matter anymore. What happens to the human race when I am dead is of very little concern to me. I have a rather nihilistic view about life. That will never change. The reason I care somewhat about my own life, is more for evolutionary reasons that I have no control over. In a sense I see myself more as an observer of humanity than an actual participant.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 3:22:28 GMT
My score on those are not very good either. I agree that that is a good list to answer the question with. I wonder what the opposite list would be. 1)Pride, 2)Anger, 3)Greed, 4)Sloth, 5)Lust, 6)Envy, 7)Gluttony. In other words, the opposite list is (((Drum roll, please....))): The 7 Deadly Sins. And those 7 virtues that I listed were the 7 Lively Virtues.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 3:29:16 GMT
I agree that that is a good list to answer the question with. I wonder what the opposite list would be. 1)Pride, 2)Anger, 3)Greed, 4)Sloth, 5)Lust, 6)Envy, 7)Gluttony. In other words, the opposite list is (((Drum roll, please....))): The 7 Deadly Sins. And those 7 virtues that I listed were the 7 Lively Virtues. I don't seen a problem with some of those. Envy can cause you to try and better yourself, I don't necessarily see a problem with lust or anger or pride either. It is when these go unchecked that is the problem. It is prefectly reasonable to have pride and be humble, though I realize you are using very narrow Biblical definitions. If nobody lusted than nobody would be procreating. As someone who has no interest in procreation or relationships, I reject the sin of lust as a bad thing. Lust is just a strong sexual desire. Greed and sloth are the only one I fully agree with.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 3:35:25 GMT
1)Pride, 2)Anger, 3)Greed, 4)Sloth, 5)Lust, 6)Envy, 7)Gluttony. In other words, the opposite list is (((Drum roll, please....))): The 7 Deadly Sins. And those 7 virtues that I listed were the 7 Lively Virtues. I don't seen a problem with some of those. Envy can cause you to try and better yourself, I don't necessarily see a problem with lust or anger or pride either. It is when these go unchecked that is the problem. It is prefectly reasonable to have pride and be humble, though I realize you are using very narrow Biblical definitions. If nobody lusted than nobody would be procreating. As someone who has no interest in procreation or relationships, I reject the sin of lust as a bad thing. Greed is the only one I fully agree with. The reason they are described as Deadly is because all other vices that people commit have their roots in at least one or two of these. Likewise, the reason why the afore-mentioned virtues are described as Lively is because all other graces have their roots in at least one or two of them.
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