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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 3:38:28 GMT
I don't seen a problem with some of those. Envy can cause you to try and better yourself, I don't necessarily see a problem with lust or anger or pride either. It is when these go unchecked that is the problem. It is prefectly reasonable to have pride and be humble, though I realize you are using very narrow Biblical definitions. If nobody lusted than nobody would be procreating. As someone who has no interest in procreation or relationships, I reject the sin of lust as a bad thing. Greed is the only one I fully agree with. The reason they are described as Deadly is because all other vices that people commit have their roots in at least one or two of these. Likewise, the reason why the afore-mentioned virtues are described as Lively is because all other graces have their roots in at least one or two of them. I sort of understand what you mean, but not really. The good list you made is good across the board, whereas the 7 deadly sins aren't necessarily bad. Being humble is necessarily good, but lusting isn't necessarily bad. That is where I am having a disconnect.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 3:48:14 GMT
The reason they are described as Deadly is because all other vices that people commit have their roots in at least one or two of these. Likewise, the reason why the afore-mentioned virtues are described as Lively is because all other graces have their roots in at least one or two of them. I sort of understand what you mean, but not really. The good list you made is good across the board, whereas the 7 deadly sins aren't necessarily bad. Being humble is necessarily good, but lusting isn't necessarily bad. That is where I am having a disconnect. How about sex crimes? Do they not have their root in lust?
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 3:49:00 GMT
I don't seen a problem with some of those. Envy can cause you to try and better yourself, I don't necessarily see a problem with lust or anger or pride either. It is when these go unchecked that is the problem. It is prefectly reasonable to have pride and be humble, though I realize you are using very narrow Biblical definitions. If nobody lusted than nobody would be procreating. As someone who has no interest in procreation or relationships, I reject the sin of lust as a bad thing. Greed is the only one I fully agree with. The reason they are described as Deadly is because all other vices that people commit have their roots in at least one or two of these. Likewise, the reason why the afore-mentioned virtues are described as Lively is because all other graces have their roots in at least one or two of them. If you were to give me the list of good things I would say yeah, that makes sense. If I follow all of those I would be a good person. But that isn't my response to the 7 deadly sin list.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 3:52:51 GMT
I sort of understand what you mean, but not really. The good list you made is good across the board, whereas the 7 deadly sins aren't necessarily bad. Being humble is necessarily good, but lusting isn't necessarily bad. That is where I am having a disconnect. How about sex crimes? Do they not have their root in lust? That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. You see the necessarily added in there? That means lust can lead to immorality, but lusting isn't a bad thing by itself. I would say sex crimes are more often about power than lust.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 3:55:37 GMT
How about sex crimes? Do they not have their root in lust? That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. You see the necessarily added in there? That means lust can lead to immorality, but lusting isn't a bad thing by itself. I would say sex crimes are more about control than lust. But, it is a sin to lust. And sex crimes such as rape, molestation, etc., have their root in it. If the sexual offenders did not lust, they would not have committed their crimes.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 3:56:24 GMT
That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. You see the necessarily added in there? That means lust can lead to immorality, but lusting isn't a bad thing by itself. I would say sex crimes are more about control than lust. But, it is a sin to lust. And sex crimes such as rape, molestation, etc., have their root in it. If the sexual offenders did not lust, they would not have committed their crimes. I am an atheist. I don't believe in sin. Sin is an act against God. If there is no God, then there is not sin. Most sex crimes are about power, not lust. It is immoral people who lust and then do something immoral based on that perfectly reasonable emotion. If nobody was immoral, lust would still be a descriptor of an emotion.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 4:00:07 GMT
But, it is a sin to lust. And sex crimes such as rape, molestation, etc., have their root in it. If the sexual offenders did not lust, they would not have committed their crimes. I am an atheist. I don't believe in sin. Sin is an act against God. If there is no God, then there is not sin. Most sex crimes are about power, not lust. Yes, power is sexually seductive. And even if there is no sin, there IS crime, which is punishable by the state.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 4:07:30 GMT
I am an atheist. I don't believe in sin. Sin is an act against God. If there is no God, then there is not sin. Most sex crimes are about power, not lust. Yes, power is sexually seductive. And even if there is no sin, there IS crime, which is punishable by the state. You are implying that lust always leads to crime/immorality. That is what I am arguing against. Sure, if nobody lusted than most sex crimes would end. If that the black and white way you are looking at it than whatever. Lust comes from our evolutionary drive to continue the species. No lust, no human race. Maybe. Fair enough about power being sexually seductive. Sure, it can be. I don't think in those terms, so for me power isn't sexually seductive. I have a very high sex drive and have an overabundance of lust, but have no desire to rape or molest anyone.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 4:12:54 GMT
You don't understand. Life doesn't carry all that much meaning to me. When I am dead nothing will matter anymore. What happens to the human race when I am dead is of very little concern to me. I have a rather nihilistic view about life. That will never change. The reason I care somewhat about my own life, is more for evolutionary reasons that I have no control over. In a sense I see myself more as an observer of humanity than an actual participant. If you want to be a good person, then don't fight being what it takes to be a good person. Of all the deadly sins, Pride is the worst. I don't even know what that sentence means. It is alien to me. I can't just force myself to care. I don't believe that is possible. I am what I am. What other people think about what I am is their problem. I am saying I don't care whether I am a good person or a bad person. It is simply a fact that I am somewhere in the middle. I realize this frightens people and I understand why someone would try and get me to be something I am not for the sake of other people and themselves, but I don't care what other people want if it interferes with what I want. Luckily for other people I have principles, I don't have much desire to do evil and am generally a nice person. Sure, if indifference is evil, than I would qualify as evil in many cases. So be it.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 4:22:27 GMT
I don't even know what that sentence means. It is alien to me. You either are a bad person or you aren't. I can't just force myself to care. I don't believe that is possible. I am what I am. What other people think about what I am is their problem. I am saying I don't care whether I am a good person or a bad person. It is simply a fact that I am somewhere in the middle. I realize this frightens people and I understand why someone would try and get me to be something I am not for the sake of other people and themselves, but I don't care what other people want if it interferes with what I want. and putting yourself down at the same time. And you're as frightening as a glass of milk. If you aren't worried about the effect of people who have the attitude I do, then why bother trying to get me to think differently or be something I am incapable of being. It is either that or you want me to be a better person for my own sake. Which is it? Maybe it is neither, but then what are your motives here? I am not being lazy. I really don't understand. Not everybody's mind can connect dots to the same extent that yours can. What if I said I am a bad person and enjoy being a bad person? What would you say to that? How do you think your advice would go over with a psychopath? I am also not putting myself down from my POV. You have a different definition of what it means to "put yourself down" than I do. If I were a bad person, me admitting and embracing that fact isn't putting myself down. It would be me being truthful. Nor did I say I was a bad person. I said, other people might.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 4:47:58 GMT
I don't even know what that sentence means. It is alien to me. You either are a bad person or you aren't. I can't just force myself to care. I don't believe that is possible. I am what I am. What other people think about what I am is their problem. I am saying I don't care whether I am a good person or a bad person. It is simply a fact that I am somewhere in the middle. I realize this frightens people and I understand why someone would try and get me to be something I am not for the sake of other people and themselves, but I don't care what other people want if it interferes with what I want. Stop being lazy and putting yourself down at the same time. And you're as frightening as a glass of milk. I just want to be comfortable to a certain extent, not hurt anybody too much and then cease to exist. That is all I want.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 5:03:39 GMT
If you aren't worried about the effect of people who have the attitude I do, then why bother trying to get me to think differently or be something I am incapable of being. It is either that or you want me to be a better person for my own sake. Which is it? Maybe it is neither, but then what are your motives here? I am not being lazy. I really don't understand. Not everybody's mind can connect dots to the same extent that yours can. What if I said I am a bad person and enjoy being a bad person? What would you say to that? How do you think your advice would go over with a psychopath? I am also not putting myself down from my POV. You have a different definition of what it means to "put yourself down" than I do. If I were a bad person, me admitting and embracing that fact isn't putting myself down. It would be me being truthful. Nor did I say I was a bad person. I said, other people might. Since I don't know who you are, I can only go by what you type here. You seem to me to be a good person who is a seeker of knowledge. That's why you come here to talk to people about spiritual topics. Only you know the truly bad things you've done. I care about truth. It just happens to be something I care about. Morality I care about more from a standpoint of something is moral or immoral as a truth, whether I care about the actual act of doing something immoral is a different question. That entirely depends on what mood I am in.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 5:27:20 GMT
Yes, power is sexually seductive. And even if there is no sin, there IS crime, which is punishable by the state. You are implying that lust always leads to crime/immorality. That is what I am arguing against. Sure, if nobody lusted than most sex crimes would end. If that the black and white way you are looking at it than whatever. Lust comes from our evolutionary drive to continue the species. No lust, no human race. Maybe. Fair enough about power being sexually seductive. Sure, it can be. I don't think in those terms, so for me power isn't sexually seductive. I have a very high sex drive and have an overabundance of lust, but have no desire to rape or molest anyone. No, I am arguing that it CAN lead to crime/immorality. As I had stated earlier, the 7 Deadly sins are so-called, because all other vices have their roots in them.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 5:49:33 GMT
You are implying that lust always leads to crime/immorality. That is what I am arguing against. Sure, if nobody lusted than most sex crimes would end. If that the black and white way you are looking at it than whatever. Lust comes from our evolutionary drive to continue the species. No lust, no human race. Maybe. Fair enough about power being sexually seductive. Sure, it can be. I don't think in those terms, so for me power isn't sexually seductive. I have a very high sex drive and have an overabundance of lust, but have no desire to rape or molest anyone. No, I am arguing that it CAN lead to crime/immorality. As I had stated earlier, the 7 Deadly sins are so-called, because all other vices have their roots in them. It is like saying don't lust and don't get angry and don't envy. It is impossible not to do these things imo. Where it is completely possible to do all of the things that would make someone a good person. If you don't get angry, don't envy, don't lust, then you aren't even a human being. It is just taking human emotions and just calling them bad. That is what my problem with that is. Maybe I just don't get it.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 6:10:33 GMT
You are implying that lust always leads to crime/immorality. That is what I am arguing against. Sure, if nobody lusted than most sex crimes would end. If that the black and white way you are looking at it than whatever. Lust comes from our evolutionary drive to continue the species. No lust, no human race. Maybe. Fair enough about power being sexually seductive. Sure, it can be. I don't think in those terms, so for me power isn't sexually seductive. I have a very high sex drive and have an overabundance of lust, but have no desire to rape or molest anyone. No, I am arguing that it CAN lead to crime/immorality. As I had stated earlier, the 7 Deadly sins are so-called, because all other vices have their roots in them. I just find the list somewhat vague. My list would be inequality, greed, apathy and cruelty. That covers all the bases with just 4 words and there is very little room to defend that any of those are moral or amoral things. For me lust, envy, pride and anger fall into the category of amoral at least half of the time.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 6:37:39 GMT
No, I am arguing that it CAN lead to crime/immorality. As I had stated earlier, the 7 Deadly sins are so-called, because all other vices have their roots in them. I just find the list somewhat vague. My list would be inequality, greed, apathy and cruelty. That covers all the bases with just 4 words and there is very little room to defend that any of those are moral or amoral things. For me lust, envy, pride and anger fall into the category of amoral at least half of the time. Inequality falls under pride. Apathy also falls under pride as well as sloth. Cruelty falls under anger, envy, greed, & lust.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 7:18:52 GMT
I just find the list somewhat vague. My list would be inequality, greed, apathy and cruelty. That covers all the bases with just 4 words and there is very little room to defend that any of those are moral or amoral things. For me lust, envy, pride and anger fall into the category of amoral at least half of the time. Inequality falls under pride. Apathy also falls under pride as well as sloth. Cruelty falls under anger, envy, greed, & lust. Just forget it. Maybe I am having cognitive dissonance that I am unable to get around. This is causing me extreme mental stress, so I don't wish to continue talking to you.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 10:27:33 GMT
Just forget it. Maybe I am having cognitive dissonance that I am unable to get around. This is causing me extreme mental stress, so I don't wish to continue talking to you. Do not let her fool you. Apathy is not a sin. And the seven deadly sins are not even in the Bible. It was made up by theologians much later but has nothing to do with actual "sin." I don't remember them being in the Bible, but I figured I just forgot. To be fair, that person didn't say they were in the Bible. It seems like quite a bit was made up by theologians later. EDIT - I just did a quick read about their origin on wikipedia.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 14:41:21 GMT
No, I am arguing that it CAN lead to crime/immorality. As I had stated earlier, the 7 Deadly sins are so-called, because all other vices have their roots in them. Pride is the deadliest because it can make the virtuous person blind to his or her failings. Yes it is.
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Post by clusium on Dec 18, 2021 14:45:34 GMT
Just forget it. Maybe I am having cognitive dissonance that I am unable to get around. This is causing me extreme mental stress, so I don't wish to continue talking to you. Do not let her fool you. Apathy is not a sin. And the seven deadly sins are not even in the Bible. It was made up by theologians much later but has nothing to do with actual "sin." Yes it is a sin. Although I included it under pride, it is also under sloth too. And yes, the 7 deadly sins were listed by later Christian theologians, but, that is BECAUSE they had all noticed that all other vices had their roots in these 7. Envy is actually the concluding sins that is Forbidden in the 10 Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife."
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