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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 1:41:39 GMT
It is all a product of ego to me. It is not possible for me to have the kind of humility you are talking about. It just isn't the kind of mind I have. That is probably why I am having such a difficult time with this. I am selfish by nature. When I do good things it is ultimately for my own emotional benefit, which is in itself selfish. There is no way around this. I gave this homeless women some money a while back. What was my main reason for this? So I could think of myself as being better than the people who wouldn't do that. That is why pride can be a very good thing. It can get someone to do good things who normally wouldn't. That homeless women could have died 5 minutes later and I would have been more or less indifferent, because she isn't me. I should add that is what all religions try to answer: How to overcome pride & selfishness with humility. Religions acknowledge that we are all fallen creatures in some way or another and teach different means of overcoming, in order to better ourselves. The best 2 examples I can think of, are Christianity & Buddhism. Christianity teaches that we must overcome them by Salvation; Buddhism teaches that we must overcome them by enlightenment. And all other religions have their own teachings on how to overcome too. Christianity also teaches immorality and is mentally abusive. Telling people they are born bad/fallen is psychologically damaging. Christianity wants it's cake and to eat it too. We aren't fallen creatures. We are just animals that happened to become more self-aware at some point. With self-awareness comes internal conflict and applying meaning where there is none. From my perspective you are believing fairy tales and saying it is truth. At some point all human life will end and that will be that. There will be no trace of it ever existing in first place and there will be nothing left to apply meaning to what was. That is just a hard truth that most people are unwilling to accept. When I am dead, it will be as if nothing exists or ever existed in the first place. The only rational way to look at the universe is from the absurdist perspective. Looking for meaning in a meaningless universe. It probably helps our species survive, but that is all it is. It is just a mental state. Life is ultimately meaningless and it feels futile to apply meaning to it. I do apply some level of meaning to things that human beings do, but it reeks of absurdity. All I want to do is try to be as comfortable as I can and not be too awful of a person until I cease to exist. I am just a blink in eternity and so is everyone else.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 3:23:44 GMT
I should add that is what all religions try to answer: How to overcome pride & selfishness with humility. Religions acknowledge that we are all fallen creatures in some way or another and teach different means of overcoming, in order to better ourselves. The best 2 examples I can think of, are Christianity & Buddhism. Christianity teaches that we must overcome them by Salvation; Buddhism teaches that we must overcome them by enlightenment. And all other religions have their own teachings on how to overcome too. Christianity also teaches immorality and is mentally abusive. Telling people they are born bad/fallen is psychologically damaging. Christianity wants it's cake and to eat it too. We aren't fallen creatures. We are just animals that happened to become more self-aware at some point. With self-awareness comes internal conflict and applying meaning where there is none. From my perspective you are believing fairy tales and saying it is truth. At some point all human life will end and that will be that. There will be no trace of it ever existing in first place and there will be nothing left to apply meaning to what was. That is just a hard truth that most people are unwilling to accept. When I am dead, it will be as if nothing exists or ever existed in the first place. The only rational way to look at the universe is from the absurdist perspective. Looking for meaning in a meaningless universe. It probably helps our species survive, but that is all it is. It is just a mental state. Life is ultimately meaningless and it feels futile to apply meaning to it. I do apply some level of meaning to things that human beings do, but it reeks of absurdity. All I want to do is try to be as comfortable as I can and not be too awful of a person until I cease to exist. I am just a blink in eternity and so is everyone else. No, Christianity does not teach immorality. It teaches morality. No, teaching that we are born with a fallen state is not psychologically damaging. It is being blatantly true to it's adherents. We MUST learn to better ourselves, as we all have the ability to do wrong.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 3:29:10 GMT
I know you are an atheist, BUT, what seems impossible to man is not impossible with God. And occasionally you do hear about people who overcome all sinfulness and become completely altruistic (& even if they do have their own faults, the faults are minimal compared to their virtues). It’s not about overcoming sin. That’s impossible. And threatening people with pain and/or death if they fail being religiously correct is not helping anyone overcome sin. It just drives the sin into the dark places of the human world and psyche. But it can be ameliorated by simply treating others the way you want to be treated yourself, aka the categorical imperative of the Enlightenment era. Obviously there are many good atheists, because religiosity in itself does not foster altruistic behavior. Too often quite the opposite. Altruism maybe more a survival of the species trait than a willingness to laid down one’s life for another. In times of war, we ask others to do this for us. Sadly is favor returned considering we just spent 20 years being arrogant zombies about the realities of Afghanistan and Iraq. Humans are a conundrum because we started out as a shy, weak prey species that evolved into the top predator on the planet. We have become such powerful predators, that we can destroy all life on it if we so choose. We can tear down in 60 minutes what took God seven days to build. Sorta makes a person feel God-like. Yes it is about overcoming sin. No it is not impossible. We all at some point have become addicted to something or even someone, and it is damaging for us, and we have to overcome it. That is exactly what Christ Warned about when He Said that if you practice sin "you are a slave to sin (Gospel according to St. John, chapter 8, verse 34)." Putting the threats of punishment in the afterlife, aside for minute, let's not forget that we do that in THIS LIFE. When people break the laws of their own land, they face legal troubles which may mean many years in prison (depending upon how serious the crime is).
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 3:29:41 GMT
Christianity also teaches immorality and is mentally abusive. Telling people they are born bad/fallen is psychologically damaging. Christianity wants it's cake and to eat it too. We aren't fallen creatures. We are just animals that happened to become more self-aware at some point. With self-awareness comes internal conflict and applying meaning where there is none. From my perspective you are believing fairy tales and saying it is truth. At some point all human life will end and that will be that. There will be no trace of it ever existing in first place and there will be nothing left to apply meaning to what was. That is just a hard truth that most people are unwilling to accept. When I am dead, it will be as if nothing exists or ever existed in the first place. The only rational way to look at the universe is from the absurdist perspective. Looking for meaning in a meaningless universe. It probably helps our species survive, but that is all it is. It is just a mental state. Life is ultimately meaningless and it feels futile to apply meaning to it. I do apply some level of meaning to things that human beings do, but it reeks of absurdity. All I want to do is try to be as comfortable as I can and not be too awful of a person until I cease to exist. I am just a blink in eternity and so is everyone else. No, Christianity does not teach immorality. It teaches morality. No, teaching that we are born with a fallen state is not psychologically damaging. It is being blatantly true to it's adherents. I vehemently disagree. Christianity teaches you to tell your children that if they don't believe a God exists that they will burn in Hell for all eternity. That is what was taught to me. If someone says that isn't an immoral teaching, they are wrong. It is in fact psychologically damaging to teach a child that they were born bad and in need of saving. There are many atheists who need years of therapy due to these harmful ideas.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 3:43:19 GMT
No, Christianity does not teach immorality. It teaches morality. No, teaching that we are born with a fallen state is not psychologically damaging. It is being blatantly true to it's adherents. I vehemently disagree. Christianity teaches you to tell your children that if they don't believe a God exists that they will burn in Hell for all eternity. That is what was taught to me. If someone says that isn't an immoral teaching, they are wrong. I was taught that living an evil life could lead to going to Hell for all eternity. I was also taught that I could go to prison (in this life) for being evil too.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 3:50:54 GMT
I vehemently disagree. Christianity teaches you to tell your children that if they don't believe a God exists that they will burn in Hell for all eternity. That is what was taught to me. If someone says that isn't an immoral teaching, they are wrong. I was taught that living an evil life could lead to going to Hell for all eternity. I was also taught that I could go to prison (in this life) for being evil too. Yes, but prison isn't eternal and it isn't torture. The point of prison is to protect the public and reform and only murderers get life in prison. As an atheist I am doomed to go to Hell for eternity under most Christian teachings, even for actions that wouldn't result in me even getting a slap on the wrist in civilized countries. Catholic teachings teach that if you are an evil person who comes to God at some point that you will no longer be punished in Hell. That means you can live an evil life and still get into Heaven, while a 10-year old who simply doesn't believe God exists and dies is doomed to Hell for eternity.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 4:01:14 GMT
I was taught that living an evil life could lead to going to Hell for all eternity. I was also taught that I could go to prison (in this life) for being evil too. Yes, but prison isn't eternal and it isn't torture. The point of prison is to protect the public and reform and only murderers get life in prison. As an atheist I am doomed to go to Hell for eternity under Christian teachings, even for actions that wouldn't result in me even getting a slap on the wrist in civilized countries. Oh, I don't know about that. In prison, depending upon how serious the crime you committed, you may have to be put in solitary confinement, because the chances are you will have the snot beaten out of you by other inmates. Even being in solitary for a very long period of time can be mentally damaging. So either way, the person loses. Rape is pretty prevalent in prison too. Back to the Christian afterlife: I am Catholic, & Catholics also teach that besides Heaven & Hell, there is also Purgatory, which is pretty much like jail in this life, in that it is for those souls that can repent in the afterlife and go to Heaven. I believe I read online somewhere, that Orthodox Christians actually pray for the souls in Hell, as they believe that it is possible to still be Saved after going to Hell. Protestants are pretty much the only ones that have a really stark black & white view of Heaven & Hell in the afterlife.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 4:05:17 GMT
Yes it is about overcoming sin. No it is not impossible. We all at some point have become addicted to something or even someone, and it is damaging for us, and we have to overcome it. That is exactly what Christ Warned about when He Said that if you practice sin "you are a slave to sin (Gospel according to St. John, chapter 8, verse 34)." Putting the threats of punishment in the afterlife, aside for minute, let's not forget that we do that in THIS LIFE. When people break the laws of their own land, they face legal troubles which may mean many years in prison (depending upon how serious the crime is). What I’m saying is focusing on the sin itself to be overcome is not always necessary. The point is get yourself in frame of mind or spirit that a sin filled life leaves the head. Simple treat others the way you expect to be treated. Jesus went beyond’s God’s written law when he declared divorcing one’s wife for any reason other than adultery is a sin. The argument between the learned rabbis at the time was a man can divorce his wife even over her bad cooking. The lust is not the sex act, but the desire to fulfill ones own pleasure at the expense of others suffering. If a man marries a women because he’s his centerfold come to life then divorces her when his gets cubby and wrinkled, that the arrogance of lust. When Jesus preached to his followers about the stranger at the door, he in essence said treat that person with same love and respect you show me or God. Cuz it might just be me. When Chauvin had his knee on Floyd’s neck when the officer no longer had to and the man was begging for his life, he killed Jesus. It does matter how sinful Floyd’s life had been, he still should treated no differently than if you had the power to save Jesus from the Cross. Do for the least of these. Floyd’s life counted and the arrogance of the Right prevents them from recognizing this. Also, arrogance is often a cover for low self-esteem. Sin is a religious word for addiction. In order to get over addiction one MUST get yourself into a frame of mind, body, and spirit to overcome said addiction.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 4:10:16 GMT
Yes, but prison isn't eternal and it isn't torture. The point of prison is to protect the public and reform and only murderers get life in prison. As an atheist I am doomed to go to Hell for eternity under Christian teachings, even for actions that wouldn't result in me even getting a slap on the wrist in civilized countries. Oh, I don't know about that. In prison, depending upon how serious the crime you committed, you may have to be put in solitary confinement, because the chances are you will have the snot beaten out of you by other inmates. Even being in solitary for a very long period of time can be mentally damaging. So either way, the person loses. Rape is pretty prevalent in prison too. Back to the Christian afterlife: I am Catholic, & Catholics also teach that besides Heaven & Hell, there is also Purgatory, which is pretty much like jail in this life, in that it is for those souls that can repent in the afterlife and go to Heaven. I believe I read online somewhere, that Orthodox Christians actually pray for the souls in Hell, as they believe that it is possible to still be Saved after going to Hell. Protestants are pretty much the only ones that have a really stark black & white view of Heaven & Hell in the afterlife. You are talking about inmates who are doing illegal things inside prison. The fact that Christianity is so broad and different sections have different beliefs is a major problem. All of them teach immoral things though. They also teach moral things. This makes sense considering all of this was likely just made up by human beings. Do you not believe the Christian God is the same God from the Old Testament? The God that murdered every human except for one family? The God that ordered entire groups of people to be slaughtered, even the children? The God that killed every first born in Exodus? It is one thing if you see the Bible as metaphor, it is extremely harmful to see as literal. The Roman Catholic Church, the system that made up stuff to fill in the blanks of stuff that is still argued about among theists to this day because of how ambiguous much of the Bible is, is the same system that has been protecting child raping priests to save face.
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Post by drystyx on Dec 19, 2021 4:14:09 GMT
B Is the one to do. A will eventually cause Hell on Earth, which is why so many people make this a Hell.
Singling out individuals to help is equal to singling out others to destroy.
Most atrocities and all genocides are demons masquerading as "helping others"
It starts slow, but gains momentum. It isn't long before the demon has a person helping someone by giving him a promotion over someone who scored higher on tests and has seniority. Then it's finding excuses to fire others to promote the one being helped.
It can be done, but almost no one has the maturity to do it correctly.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 5:45:42 GMT
Oh, I don't know about that. In prison, depending upon how serious the crime you committed, you may have to be put in solitary confinement, because the chances are you will have the snot beaten out of you by other inmates. Even being in solitary for a very long period of time can be mentally damaging. So either way, the person loses. Rape is pretty prevalent in prison too. Back to the Christian afterlife: I am Catholic, & Catholics also teach that besides Heaven & Hell, there is also Purgatory, which is pretty much like jail in this life, in that it is for those souls that can repent in the afterlife and go to Heaven. I believe I read online somewhere, that Orthodox Christians actually pray for the souls in Hell, as they believe that it is possible to still be Saved after going to Hell. Protestants are pretty much the only ones that have a really stark black & white view of Heaven & Hell in the afterlife. You are talking about inmates who are doing illegal things inside prison. The fact that Christianity is so broad and different sections have different beliefs is a major problem. All of them teach immoral things though. They also teach moral things. This makes sense considering all of this was likely just made up by human beings. Do you not believe the Christian God is the same God from the Old Testament? The God that murdered every human except for one family? The God that ordered entire groups of people to be slaughtered, even the children? The God that killed every first born in Exodus? It is one thing if you see the Bible as metaphor, it is extremely harmful to see as literal. The Roman Catholic Church, the system that made up stuff to fill in the blanks of stuff that is still argued about among theists to this day because of how ambiguous much of the Bible is, is the same system that has been protecting child raping priests to save face. Human Life is under the Will Of God, whether that life ends after only 2 days or well after a century. The difference between one person killing another person and God Taking the life, is that the life still exists. God simply Separates the soul from the body. Moreover, it is not just in the Bible that the Great Flood occurred. Practically all religions and cultures teach that there was a world wide flood, brought on to wipe out the wicket that took place in the world, and that the only people that survived were the ones whom God Deemed worthy to survive, & repopulate the world.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 5:48:49 GMT
I was taught that living an evil life could lead to going to Hell for all eternity. I was also taught that I could go to prison (in this life) for being evil too. Just being born will lead you to hell, at least according to the teachings of many churches. No one gets out of the Original Sin without being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No other Sin can be on a person's soul, they still go to hell. However, that to me is a sinful teaching. For centuries, the Church taught that non-baptized infants went to a state called 'Limbo.' That belief no longer exists within the Church now. Limbo was pretty much another term for Purgatory anyway (which is a temporal state before being admitted into Heaven). The Church still teaches Purgatory BTW (yes, I realize that what I just posted is sort of contradictory; but how Limbo came about is probably kind of complicated).
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 6:01:28 GMT
For centuries, the Church taught that non-baptized infants went to a state called 'Limbo.' That belief no longer exists within the Church now. Limbo was pretty much another term for Purgatory anyway (which is a temporal state before being admitted into Heaven). The Church still teaches Purgatory BTW (yes, I realize that what I just posted is sort of contradictory; but how Limbo came about is probably kind of complicated). They came up with Limbo because it was unthinkable God would so punish the innocent. There is no bases for it in Scripture. Neither is there for Purgatory which was a means to punish the non-arrogant sinner, like the kind Jesus hung out with. Even so, any child or adult who is not baptized is still on the hook for the Original Sin. Actually, there is not much in the Bible about sending people to Hell and certainly no living human has seen Hell or Heaven, nor can they tell anyone where these places are located. Jesus was more interested in getting people treating other with kindness, than condemning them. See the woman caught in adultery story. And it is simple kindness...that is doing unto others...that is lacking in most pious Christians. No, Purgatory is in Scripture. It is in the 2 Book of Maccabees (in the Catholic & Orthodox Old Testament, but, not Protestant Old Testaments), & it is is in St. Matthew chapter 12, verse 31.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 6:41:44 GMT
You are talking about inmates who are doing illegal things inside prison. The fact that Christianity is so broad and different sections have different beliefs is a major problem. All of them teach immoral things though. They also teach moral things. This makes sense considering all of this was likely just made up by human beings. Do you not believe the Christian God is the same God from the Old Testament? The God that murdered every human except for one family? The God that ordered entire groups of people to be slaughtered, even the children? The God that killed every first born in Exodus? It is one thing if you see the Bible as metaphor, it is extremely harmful to see as literal. The Roman Catholic Church, the system that made up stuff to fill in the blanks of stuff that is still argued about among theists to this day because of how ambiguous much of the Bible is, is the same system that has been protecting child raping priests to save face. Human Life is under the Will Of God, whether that life ends after only 2 days or well after a century. The difference between one person killing another person and God Taking the life, is that the life still exists. God simply Separates the soul from the body. Moreover, it is not just in the Bible that the Great Flood occurred. Practically all religions and cultures teach that there was a world wide flood, brought on to wipe out the wicket that took place in the world, and that the only people that survived were the ones whom God Deemed worthy to survive, & repopulate the world. That is all twisted thinking from my POV and nobody can provide reasonable evidence that a God even exists. There might have been a lot of floods happening in certain areas a long time ago, but that doesn't point to that the origin was God. World wide flood would have been from the perspective of the area, they would be confusing a world wide flood with a local floods. They would have no way to know if it was world wide. People were very bad thinkers back then and all were humans, so they made up similar stories to explain what was happening. Human came up with mythical reasons why everything happened at that time, because they had very little understanding of the world. There is no evidence that there was ever a word wide flood and the Noah's Ark story specifically makes no logical sense. A giant flood may have happened, but the fact that cultures that didn't even have access to one another are telling the story means that each separate civilization had survivors to pass on the story, which makes the Noah story clearly not true. Either that or they were ecountering eachother and borrowing from eachother's stories. The oldest flood story is from Ancient Mesopotamia. There are so many other issues too, such as that the Roman Catholic Church accepts that we evolved from apes. The scientific finding contradict what the Bible says and God never bothers clearing any of this up if God exists, leaving everyone with different understanding of things that conflict with eachother. If the God of the Bible proved itself to me, I still wouldn't follow that God btw. Because that God is evil from my POV.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 19, 2021 16:03:41 GMT
I would say what makes a good person is someone who has faith in God, goes out of their way to help others, and seeks to bring out the best in people.
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Post by Isapop on Dec 19, 2021 16:53:41 GMT
I would say what makes a good person is someone who has faith in God, goes out of their way to help others, and seeks to bring out the best in people. So, by this definition, there are no atheist or agnostic good people.
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Post by drystyx on Dec 19, 2021 17:11:29 GMT
B Is the one to do. A will eventually cause Hell on Earth, which is why so many people make this a Hell.Singling out individuals to help is equal to singling out others to destroy. Most atrocities and all genocides are demons masquerading as "helping others" It starts slow, but gains momentum. It isn't long before the demon has a person helping someone by giving him a promotion over someone who scored higher on tests and has seniority. Then it's finding excuses to fire others to promote the one being helped. It can be done, but almost no one has the maturity to do it correctly. A) Go out of their way to help othersIf you are a Christian, this is exactly what Jesus commanded you to do. And you've accused him of sending people to Hell for doing good. That is not "doing good", to go out of your way to help others, unless you know exactly what you're doing, and you're not hurting anyone else by helping others. The safest way to know you're doing good is to help an individual against a mob. Then you know you're not hurting anyone 99.9999% of the time. Or maybe just 99.9% of the time. Otherwise, going out of the way to help others is actually helping a mob to falsely persecute an individual who is an outsider. That is what happens 100% of the time in Louisville. That's just the way it is. For example, helping the gangsters and mobsters who prey upon the poor, what the demon possessed people call "giving someone a second chance" just makes them able to enhance their resources and skills to prey upon the poor even more. I've seen it work that way 100% of the time. And the people giving human monsters that "second chance" before letting any of their prey have a "first chance" know full well that their claims of "helping others" is a lie. They know they're Satanists in their spirit, because plenty of people tell them that the poor people deserve a first chance, and the people in gangs are never the "poor" people. They prey upon the "poor people". Let us take the sinners of 30 A.D. or thereabouts in Jerusalem, Nazareth, Canaan, the entire area. Jesus helped those who were individuals. Matthew was a tax collector who was ostracized. The woman being stoned was ostracized. They were individuals. Whatever gang they affiliated with, they were not accepted as actual members. The Romans didn't have banquets for Matthew. We know he wasn't a fully accepted member of Rome because we know that the Hebrews felt safe in ostracizing him. You can't say gang members or mobsters are ostracized. That's proven by the very fact that they get second, third, sixth, fifteenth chances before the actual poor people get a first chance. They're revered members of the community even before they decide to quit gangs. Yet it is easy for people to "help" the rich. Much easier than helping the actual poor. That's because gang members are accepted into gangs only because they have resources, riches, and skills. Gangs don't accept just anyone. You have to be skilled. Lock pickers are skilled locksmiths. Mechanics are skilled mechanics. Lookouts have 20-15 vision and super fast vision. Not a single gang member is needy. Any gang member can make a fortune in some legitimate field, and they know this. They're told this. Lookouts know they could make hundreds of thousands of dollars even if they only hit .222 in the major leagues. They know this. So they're "easy" to help, which means that if we just look for someone easy to help, we locate those who don't need help. Jesus helped those who needed a lot of help.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 19, 2021 17:48:24 GMT
I would say what makes a good person is someone who has faith in God, goes out of their way to help others, and seeks to bring out the best in people. So, by this definition, there are no atheist or agnostic good people. Got it in one. Although technically there are no good people full stop.
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Post by Isapop on Dec 19, 2021 18:05:02 GMT
So, by this definition, there are no atheist or agnostic good people. Got it in one. Although technically there are no good people full stop. Let's not get technical. To the extent that there can be such a thing as "good" people, they cannot include atheists or agnostics (by your lights).
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 19, 2021 18:12:08 GMT
Got it in one. Although technically there are no good people full stop. Let's not get technical. To the extent that there can be such a thing as "good" people, they cannot include atheists or agnostics (by your lights). No such thing as an atheist. Anybody with a rational mind knows deep down in his heart of hearts that God exists. Some people just don’t believe that they believe He exists. They don’t want him to exist, for various reasons(usually sin), so they tend to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
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