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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 18:55:13 GMT
I don't remember them being in the Bible, but I figured I just forgot. To be fair, that person didn't say they were in the Bible. It seems like quite a bit was made up by theologians later. They are not bad rules, along with the 7 Virtues to live by. Sadly too many folks focus too much on the assigning the sins to others and not enough on practicing the virtues themselves. I feel better today and I agree they can be useful as to what to try and avoid doing when possible. I get overly defensive sometimes and many of the 7 deadly sins (I just cringe at the word sin) fit me very well and that is what was causing me some of the mental block I think. My vices are what keeps me sane. I like you, I just don't like people to tell me to "keep working on stuff," because I already am doing that. I don't need anyone telling me to. I am scared of changing too much because I wouldn't feel like me anymore if I change too much.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 19:10:58 GMT
Inequality falls under pride. Apathy also falls under pride as well as sloth. Cruelty falls under anger, envy, greed, & lust. Pride is cruelty too. Not facing the fact that this nation was founded upon and profited mightily from the sin of slavery is pride. Believing Robert E Lee was a hero and good man is pride. Racism, homophobia, misogyny are pride. Making sure inequality remains the status quo is pride. You are correct obviously, but I was talking about pride in your work or pride in who you are. A healthy amount of pride is a good thing. It is pride that makes when I am wrong. That is what it is. I have pride in being humble. This made me think maybe I am not using the word in the same way or I am thinking of just being proud. Maybe those are separate things. Couldn't you say that we lust for the truth or for a better world?
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 22:43:24 GMT
You are correct obviously, but I was talking about pride in your work or pride in who you are. A healthy amount of pride is a good thing.
It is pride that makes when I am wrong. That is what it is. I have pride in being humble. This made me think maybe I am not using the word in the same way or I am thinking of just being proud. Maybe those are separate things. Couldn't you say that we lust for the truth or for a better world? Probably arrogance is the word. Trump has more deadly pride than any person alive today. Like when he claimed to be a Christian, but then said he had not done anything wrong to ask for God’s forgiveness. That’s Pride. You helped a lot there. Arrogance is the word I would use. I agree about Trump completely. Donald Trump is a narcissist and narcissists are extremely dangerous. I think there is a lot of conflict within Christian thinking. Christianity is a very arrogant religion, whether it realizes this or not.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 22:52:59 GMT
You helped a lot there. Arrogance is the word I would use. I agree about Trump completely. Donald Trump is a narcissist and narcissists are extremely dangerous. I think there is a lot of conflict within Christian thinking. Christianity is a very arrogant religion, whether it realizes this or not.
Bingo! Just to add to that, I think religions that believe in a personal God are arrogant across the board. It is hard to imagine anything more arrogant than to think the world was created for you.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Dec 18, 2021 23:18:08 GMT
Inequality falls under Pride I would say many of those could lead to supporting inequality: Pride: Believing you deserve to be above others Sloth: Not bothering to tackle inequality Gluttony and Greed: Seeking out the benefits inequality brings you Wrath: Anger at those trying to take what's "yours" Even Lust might play a part if you consider how men benefit from sexual inequality - trophy wives, the sex industry etc are only possible due to men being more financially secure than women and using that advantage to feed their lust Envy is an odd one though since generally it is those that lack that feel envy. |
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 23:21:45 GMT
Just to add to that, I think religions that believe in a personal God are arrogant across the board. It is hard to imagine anything more arrogant than to think the world was created for you.
I agree. There are also just people who don't care about climate change, because they figure they will be dead before it effects their life in any significant way. I bring this up just because I think religion sometimes takes too much of the credit. It deserves a lot of it, but not all of it. There are plenty of atheists I am sure, who have the mindset of "I have mine, fuck everybody else." I have that mindset to a certain extent and that is my "cross to bare."
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 23:44:20 GMT
Just to add to that, I think religions that believe in a personal God are arrogant across the board. It is hard to imagine anything more arrogant than to think the world was created for you. That’s pride. And this is the notion that is killing us. Many folks are under the impression God gave Man, not woman, dominion over the Earth, as such the planet belongs to them and they can do as they please with her, take they want, and destroy the environments that support the life living on it for theirs, and theirs alone, to profit by. Or that God Almighty speaks directly to them. And everyone should conform to their beliefs and behave like them. I am an anti-social person and I don't particularly like or trust most people. I am trying to be better, but even my motive for being better is entirely ego driven. I have a dulled empathy by nature, due to being socially awkward. finding human beings confusing, finding most people irritating, extreme anxiety, clinical depression and being generally bored of being alive. Sloth is definitely my biggest issue. I am so lazy sometimes I sometimes would rather just cease to exist, so I don't have to think anymore. Having extreme OCD, thinking causes me a lot of mental stress. This isn't me making excuses, it is my stating facts about myself. My mind is somewhat of a twisted mess and trying to untwist it causes me to become extremely anxious and frustrated, which in turn makes my depression worse, which in turn makes me want to do harmful things to myself and other people. I am mentally exhausted and often feel like I am on the verge of a complete mental breakdown. I have been walking on this tightrope for my whole life.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 18, 2021 23:53:23 GMT
I agree. There are also just people who don't care about climate change, because they figure they will be dead before it effects their life in any significant way. I bring this up just because I think religion sometimes takes too much of the credit. It deserves a lot of it, but not all of it. There are plenty of atheists I am sure, who have the mindset of "I have mine, fuck everybody else." I have that mindset to a certain extent and that is my "cross to bare."Their arrogant mindset stems from a different place than those who use religion to justify their surreptitious pursuit of the “7 deadlies.” Most criminals kind know what they are and rarely claim to be good. However, only religion (and by extension ideology) and arrogance can make an otherwise good person do bad things. The men who prevented the immediate evacuation of Chernobyl, which would have save many lives, did not do so because they were evil men and wanted people to suffer…they got sick and died too…but their head training would not let them believe a meltdown was possible. The “it can’t happen here” mentality. Not to us. Stupid as it was, they thought they were doing the right thing. But their pride in their positions of power killed people. Again, I agree. Though if they thought they were doing the right thing than how can you back up the claim that they wanted people to suffer? I am often glad I don't have the social skills or ambition to ever be in a position of significant power, because I could end up doing bad things just for reasons of personal thrill. This is at least a worry I have. I would also never have children for this reason. I having a very difficult time controlling my emotions could possibly lead me to doing horrible things in a specific situation if I was in a bad mental space at the time. I think I would be able too keep myself in check, but the fact that I don't know for sure is concerning. I am also not someone who is very concerned with money. I don't know why any human being needs to make more than a certain amount of money in a year. I am definitely not a greedy person in the sense of wanting power or money or even all that many material goods. Just give my laptop, food and some money for fun now and then and I am good.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 0:08:06 GMT
Inequality falls under Pride I would say many of those could lead to supporting inequality: Pride: Believing you deserve to be above others Sloth: Not bothering to tackle inequality Gluttony and Greed: Seeking out the benefits inequality brings you Wrath: Anger at those trying to take what's "yours" Even Lust might play a part if you consider how men benefit from sexual inequality - trophy wives, the sex industry etc are only possible due to men being more financially secure than women and using that advantage to feed their lust Envy is an odd one though since generally it is those that lack that feel envy. Exactly. That is why these 7 are listed as DEADLY. Because all other vices have their roots in at least one or two of these 7 sins.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 0:30:55 GMT
I am an anti-social person and I don't particularly like or trust most people. I am trying to be better, but even my motive for being better is entirely ego driven. I have a dulled empathy by nature, due to being socially awkward. finding human beings confusing, finding most people irritating, extreme anxiety, clinical depression and being generally bored of being alive. Sloth is definitely my biggest issue. I am so lazy sometimes I sometimes would rather just cease to exist, so I don't have to think anymore. Having extreme OCD, thinking causes me a lot of mental stress. This isn't me making excuses, it is my stating facts about myself. My mind is somewhat of a twisted mess and trying to untwist it causes me to become extremely anxious and frustrated, which in turn makes my depression worse, which in turn makes me want to do harmful things to myself and other people. I am mentally exhausted and often feel like I am on the verge of a complete mental breakdown. I have been walking on this tightrope for my whole life. Well, you’re an intelligent person, therefore making “improvements” upon yourself shouldn’t be a big problem. Just finding the place you’re most comfortable with yourself is the goal. I myself went into therapy for major depression. The most profound the thing my therapist told me after about a year of me talking about myself was clever people have the best recovery rates because they can participate in their own therapy better. After taking Zoloft for three years, I was able to ween off of it. I realize you are trying to be helpful. I appreciate the effort.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 0:40:26 GMT
I realize you are trying to be helpful. I appreciate the effort. I’m not lying. I’m very pro people, believe it or not. I didn't think you were lying. You seem to be very pro-people and that is a good thing. I envy you. 
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 1:04:32 GMT
I didn't think you were lying. You seem to be very pro-people and that is a good thing. I envy you. Thank you. You are welcome. People I like get my respect. You have earned my respect. Remember that I have known you on here for quite a while and we agree about a great many things. If I didn't like you I wouldn't still be talking to you.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 1:09:15 GMT
Exactly. That is why these 7 are listed as DEADLY. Because all other vices have their roots in at least one or two of these 7 sins. The simplest explanation is usually the best one: all sin stems from pride (aka arrogance) because thinking one has a God given right to something is the original Fall from Grace narrative.* Resentment (envy) and murder followed. *I don’t believe in the literalness in myth, but I recognize the truth value that can be found in them. Obviously telling stories how bad behavior destroys the good people was the important truth being conveyed, not how long it took God to create the universe. Yes. I think most people recognize that our most common vice - Pride - is perhaps the worst of all. It can be overcome if we all learned humility. Should be noted that having humility does not mean having low self esteem. Indeed, even low self esteem is a form of pride itself. Humility means you think less of your own self, and think of the needs of others before your own.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 1:19:27 GMT
The simplest explanation is usually the best one: all sin stems from pride (aka arrogance) because thinking one has a God given right to something is the original Fall from Grace narrative.* Resentment (envy) and murder followed. *I don’t believe in the literalness in myth, but I recognize the truth value that can be found in them. Obviously telling stories how bad behavior destroys the good people was the important truth being conveyed, not how long it took God to create the universe. Yes. I think most people recognize that our most common vice - Pride - is perhaps the worst of all. It can be overcome if we all learned humility. Should be noted that having humility does not mean having low self esteem. Indeed, even low self esteem is a form of pride itself. Humility means you think less of your own self, and think of the needs of others before your own. I think the problem I have with pride being listed as a bad thing is that pride is the driving force behind wanting to educate myself and be a more moral person. It is all a product of ego to me. It is not possible for my to have the kind of humility you are talking about. It just isn't the kind of mind I have. That is probably why I am having such a difficult time with this. I am selfish by nature and believe we all are. When I do good things it is ultimately for my own emotional benefit, which is in itself selfish. There is no way around this.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 1:23:21 GMT
Yes. I think most people recognize that our most common vice - Pride - is perhaps the worst of all. It can be overcome if we all learned humility. Should be noted that having humility does not mean having low self esteem. Indeed, even low self esteem is a form of pride itself. Humility means you think less of your own self, and think of the needs of others before your own. I think the problem I have with pride being listed as a bad thing is that pride is the driving force behind wanting to educate myself and be a more moral person. Without that I would have done much worse things in my life. Yes, there is nothing wrong with trying to better one's own self. In fact it still quite possible to do so with humility. I recall about 20 years ago or so, reading on the message forums on Yahoo.com, sin & virtue being defined in this way: Sin is when the flesh consumes the soul. Virtue is when the soul overcomes the body.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 1:25:26 GMT
I think the problem I have with pride being listed as a bad thing is that pride is the driving force behind wanting to educate myself and be a more moral person. Without that I would have done much worse things in my life. Yes, there is nothing wrong with trying to better one's own self. In fact it still quite possible to do so with humility. I recall about 20 years ago or so, reading on the message forums on Yahoo.com, sin & virtue being defined in this way: Sin is when the flesh consumes the soul. Virtue is when the soul overcomes the body. It is all a product of ego to me. It is not possible for me to have the kind of humility you are talking about. It just isn't the kind of mind I have. That is probably why I am having such a difficult time with this. I am selfish by nature. When I do good things it is ultimately for my own emotional benefit, which is in itself selfish. There is no way around this. I gave this homeless women some money a while back. What was my main reason for this? So I could think of myself as being better than the people who wouldn't do that. That is why pride can be a very good thing. It can get someone to do good things who normally wouldn't. That homeless women could have died 5 minutes later and I would have been more or less indifferent, because she isn't me.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 1:30:12 GMT
Yes, there is nothing wrong with trying to better one's own self. In fact it still quite possible to do so with humility. I recall about 20 years ago or so, reading on the message forums on Yahoo.com, sin & virtue being defined in this way: Sin is when the flesh consumes the soul. Virtue is when the soul overcomes the body. It is all a product of ego to me. It is not possible for me to have the kind of humility you are talking about. It just isn't the kind of mind I have. That is probably why I am having such a difficult time with this. I am selfish by nature. When I do good things it is ultimately for my own emotional benefit, which is in itself selfish. There is no way around this. I gave this homeless women some money a while back. What was my main reason for this? So I could think of myself as being better than the people who wouldn't do that. That is why pride can be a very good thing. It can get someone to do good things who normally wouldn't. That homeless women could have died 5 minutes later and I would have been more or less indifferent. I am selfish by nature too. Think a great many of us are. It takes much for all of us to overcome our own passions and try to be virtuous.
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Post by moviemouth on Dec 19, 2021 1:35:43 GMT
It is all a product of ego to me. It is not possible for me to have the kind of humility you are talking about. It just isn't the kind of mind I have. That is probably why I am having such a difficult time with this. I am selfish by nature. When I do good things it is ultimately for my own emotional benefit, which is in itself selfish. There is no way around this. I gave this homeless women some money a while back. What was my main reason for this? So I could think of myself as being better than the people who wouldn't do that. That is why pride can be a very good thing. It can get someone to do good things who normally wouldn't. That homeless women could have died 5 minutes later and I would have been more or less indifferent. I am selfish by nature too. Think a great many of us are. It takes much for all of us to overcome our own passions and try to be virtuous. I think it is impossible. I mean if we didn't have all these faults then we wouldn't be human, so to speak. I ask myself, why am I even still alive? Because I have an investment in my own survival. It isn't even a matter of choice, it is a desire built into evolution. Everyone else has to be secondary. I think we just need to find a better balance in general.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 1:37:03 GMT
Yes, there is nothing wrong with trying to better one's own self. In fact it still quite possible to do so with humility. I recall about 20 years ago or so, reading on the message forums on Yahoo.com, sin & virtue being defined in this way: Sin is when the flesh consumes the soul. Virtue is when the soul overcomes the body. It is all a product of ego to me. It is not possible for me to have the kind of humility you are talking about. It just isn't the kind of mind I have. That is probably why I am having such a difficult time with this. I am selfish by nature. When I do good things it is ultimately for my own emotional benefit, which is in itself selfish. There is no way around this. I gave this homeless women some money a while back. What was my main reason for this? So I could think of myself as being better than the people who wouldn't do that. That is why pride can be a very good thing. It can get someone to do good things who normally wouldn't. That homeless women could have died 5 minutes later and I would have been more or less indifferent, because she isn't me. I should add that is what all religions try to answer: How to overcome pride & selfishness with humility. Religions acknowledge that we are all fallen creatures in some way or another and teach different means of overcoming, in order to better ourselves. The best 2 examples I can think of, are Christianity & Buddhism. Christianity teaches that we must overcome them by Salvation; Buddhism teaches that we must overcome them by enlightenment. And all other religions have their own teachings on how to overcome too.
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Post by clusium on Dec 19, 2021 1:39:11 GMT
I am selfish by nature too. Think a great many of us are. It takes much for all of us to overcome our own passions and try to be virtuous. I think it is impossible. I mean if we didn't have all these faults then we wouldn't be human, so to speak. I ask myself, why am I even still alive? Because I have an investment in my own survival. It isn't even a matter of choice, it is a desire built into evolution. Everyone else has to be secondary. I think we just need to find a better balance in general. I know you are an atheist, BUT, what seems impossible to man is not impossible with God. And occasionally you do hear about people who overcome all sinfulness and become completely altruistic (& even if they do have their own faults, the faults are minimal compared to their virtues).
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