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Post by Isapop on Dec 19, 2021 18:39:25 GMT
Let's not get technical. To the extent that there can be such a thing as "good" people, they cannot include atheists or agnostics (by your lights). No such thing as an atheist. Anybody with a rational mind knows deep down in his heart of hearts that God exists. Some people just don’t believe that they believe He exists. They don’t want him to exist, for various reasons(usually sin), so they tend to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. What a dodge. OK, I'll humor you. To the extent that there can be such a thing as "good" people, can they include those people who "just don’t believe that they believe He exists"?
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 19, 2021 19:39:42 GMT
No such thing as an atheist. Anybody with a rational mind knows deep down in his heart of hearts that God exists. Some people just don’t believe that they believe He exists. They don’t want him to exist, for various reasons(usually sin), so they tend to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. What a dodge. OK, I'll humor you. To the extent that there can be such a thing as "good" people, can they include those people who "just don’t believe that they believe He exists"? Didn’t I already answer this in my first reply to you?
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Post by clusium on Dec 20, 2021 0:31:01 GMT
No, Purgatory is in Scripture. It is in the 2 Book of Maccabees (in the Catholic & Orthodox Old Testament, but, not Protestant Old Testaments), & it is is in St. Matthew chapter 12, verse 31. It's a stretch at best. 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. This is referring to at the end of time, all the righteous will live again after being purged of their sins while dead. Making temple sacrifices was for this purpose...this is what Judas Maccabeus was considering (i.e. thinking about.) The verses prior: 38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place. 39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. 41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. 42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. So God killed, using the Greek army, the Jews who had fallen back into idol worship as punishment. Just because they admonished the surviving Jews not to fall into sin, does not mean that they did not hope for God's Forgiveness for those that passed; that is why they interceded with Him to Forgive the deceased (believing that they were in a state that could still Be Forgiven By God).
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Post by clusium on Dec 20, 2021 0:36:04 GMT
No, Purgatory is in Scripture. It is in the 2 Book of Maccabees (in the Catholic & Orthodox Old Testament, but, not Protestant Old Testaments), & it is is in St. Matthew chapter 12, verse 31. 30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.Kinda arrogant, but just what is a sin against the Holy Spirit? If we don't know, how are we going to know we've done the one thing we can never ever be forgiven for. If this is that serious, you'd think Jesus would tell us....or maybe this just goes back to not treating everyone as if they are Jesus. 22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”This is like the Muslims who are not allowed to say a bad thing about another Muslim. Fear of saying the wrong thing cuts back on people daring to say anything against the "brood of vipers" controlling a church. However, I don't see anything about purgatory in the passage. It was verse 32, where Christ Says that only Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit Receives no Forgiveness in THIS life, OR the next!!! The fact that one can have their sins Forgiven after death, means there is another state, besides Heaven or Hell, where one may still have a chance to make it right with God.
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Post by clusium on Dec 20, 2021 0:41:00 GMT
Human Life is under the Will Of God, whether that life ends after only 2 days or well after a century. The difference between one person killing another person and God Taking the life, is that the life still exists. God simply Separates the soul from the body. Moreover, it is not just in the Bible that the Great Flood occurred. Practically all religions and cultures teach that there was a world wide flood, brought on to wipe out the wicket that took place in the world, and that the only people that survived were the ones whom God Deemed worthy to survive, & repopulate the world. That is all twisted thinking from my POV and nobody can provide reasonable evidence that a God even exists. There might have been a lot of floods happening in certain areas a long time ago, but that doesn't point to that the origin was God. World wide flood would have been from the perspective of the area, they would be confusing a world wide flood with a local floods. They would have no way to know if it was world wide. People were very bad thinkers back then and all were humans, so they made up similar stories to explain what was happening. Human came up with mythical reasons why everything happened at that time, because they had very little understanding of the world. There is no evidence that there was ever a word wide flood and the Noah's Ark story specifically makes no logical sense. A giant flood may have happened, but the fact that cultures that didn't even have access to one another are telling the story means that each separate civilization had survivors to pass on the story, which makes the Noah story clearly not true. Either that or they were ecountering eachother and borrowing from eachother's stories. The oldest flood story is from Ancient Mesopotamia. There are so many other issues too, such as that the Roman Catholic Church accepts that we evolved from apes. The scientific finding contradict what the Bible says and God never bothers clearing any of this up if God exists, leaving everyone with different understanding of things that conflict with eachother. If the God of the Bible proved itself to me, I still wouldn't follow that God btw. Because that God is evil from my POV. What is the big deal with the Catholic Church accepting evolution? Or any of the other mainline Christian Churches accepting it for that matter? Contrary to what both atheists & fundamentalist & Evangelical Protestants may think, evolution does not contradict Genesis. Why you may ask? Because the Bible makes it quite clear that God's Time is not the same as human time. The Bible says (both in the Old & New Testaments) that for God, a thousand years is just like a day for Him. So you believe that the Source of all life in the universe is evil??? Oooookay.
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Post by clusium on Dec 20, 2021 5:15:22 GMT
It was verse 32, where Christ Says that only Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit Receives no Forgiveness in THIS life, OR the next!!! The fact that one can have their sins Forgiven after death, means there is another state, besides Heaven or Hell, where one may still have a chance to make it right with God. But what exactly constitutes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? And how do you have not done it? You know what I think it is, it is not believing Jesus’ own words when he preached his sermons to step by step build a world where humans are no longer killing and hating on the Others who do not conform to their worldview to create Jesus’ vision of lovingkindness in place of sin. However, his followers reject him because they say things like it’s unworkable; it will only lead nasty, horrible things; like liberalism and communism where there’s nothing but suffering. So my take on the Unforgivable Sin is calling Jesus’ Great Commandment a Lie, because nobody wants to really give up their petty egos and selfishness and unconditionally respect other people. If you don’t like the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, then you’re not going to like the Kingdom in Heaven where you must share space with the likes of me. There’s only one option after you reject the Heaven you don’t expect to see or even like. Now, this just my opinion. Don’t worry about going to Heaven or Hell. Just look inside your head, and there you will find the one you prefer most. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit takes the following forms: 1)Obstinacy in one's own sinfulness, 2)Despair in one's own sinfulness, 3)Presumption in one's own personal salvation, 4)Resisting a Holy Truth, 5)Envy Of the Spiritual Gifts that Have Been Given to others, & 6)Final Impenitence.
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Post by clusium on Dec 20, 2021 6:16:03 GMT
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit takes the following forms: 1)Obstinacy in one's own sinfulness, 2)Despair in one's own sinfulness, 3)Presumption in one's own personal salvation, 4)Resisting a Holy Truth, 5)Envy Of the Spiritual Gifts that Have Been Given to others, & 6)Final Impenitence. So, how many of the above you yourself can check off? 1. Check how much love do you feel for people like me. Feeling a stiffnecked? 2. You ever think there’s no way I can love others the same as myself. I’m not that lovable. 3. Are you so sure God thinks your particular is the only correct church, considering it’s massive failure in promoting his Peace and Good Will to All People Plan? 4. How much do you really believe this: 5. Spiritual gift are wonderful, but like tree that bears rotten fruit, it’s easy to spot the fake spirit, drummed up because it’s Christmas and saying “Peace on Earth and Good Will to All People” are just platitudes you say like Merry Christmas. Only say it if you really mean it. 6. Here’s what I’m talking about. You get to Heaven and it is nothing like you expected, and God says to you, “what’s your problem,” and you say, “what’s he doing here! I hate him,” pointing at me, and God says, “well if you don’t approve of how I’m doing things, you know where the exit door in Pearly Gates are.” 7. Be careful, because you may be entertaining angels unaware. Good luck and Merry Christmas.
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