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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 22:23:45 GMT
No they weren't. They were dealt the best hand, An extremely intolerant fanbase who had 30 years of headcanon who were bound to complain about something, a Universe where a lot of possibilities weren't viable thanks to past failures, an aging OT cast the fans were DESPERATE to see again despite their age being a big hurdle because the thought of them NOT being in the forefront was insulting...that's a S*** hand. No it isn't. Those failures are your opinion. Or do you not know that the prequels were box office successes. Your claim that they ruined the franchise is just your... (the irony) ...intolerant opinion. Lucas sat on doing anymore films because he was tired of doing them. Merchandise sold. Animated series were made. There was no ruination. Aging cast? Ford was running around firing blasters in TFA. Luke was pole vaulting in TLJ. So much for that theory that it would be a problem! Fans desperate to see them again? You bet! That's a sign of good characters. A good storyteller doesn't waste good characters. No. If Disney turned it into that tripe that they crank out on the Disney channel they were asking to get ripped. If they made storylines based on Jar Jar Abrams mystery box, they were asking to get ripped. Nobody put a gun to their head.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 22:26:01 GMT
if there were "Invaders from another Galaxy" (like the Dominium, The Shadows etc) how would that be like the Separatist movement, A force equal in power to the Republic waging war on it for control over the Galaxy. Same as the separatists. No it isn't. And that's not necessarily what he was implying anyway. You're just forcing the connection to your narrative.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 22:36:06 GMT
No it isn't. Those failures are your opinion. Or do you not know that the prequels were box office successes. So are the Transformers movies. The certainly destroyed any chance of doing political storylines or worldbuilding stories that wouldn't get the stink eye right off the bat. Lucas himself even said he felt the Saga was done. This is why no matter WHAT the ST did it would be derided as "fanfiction". Yeah, and this just proved how disgusted the OT audience was at the idea of new characters. They'd rather have the older OT characters running around doing that stuff, no matter how silly it eventually would get, rather than have any new ones doing it. And when they get killed, like Han did, the new characters get blamed for it. Naturally. To the point they'd never accept that they'd ever be replaced. They do politics and worldbuilding of this new ST era, they get ripped into for being like the Prequels. They do minimal worldbuilding and be like the OT, they get ripped into. And yeah, there was gun to their head by the OT fans who were already PO'ed enough that new movies were being made in the first place.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 22:37:38 GMT
Because it did. It's called pulling elements from different places and putting it together into something more than one group can like. Too bad the stuff from the PT isn't compatible with how things were done in the OT. Otherwise OT fans wouldn't have been so disappointed with how the PT did things. I know my unpleasables when I see them. The second they see a big beautiful CGI Coruscant or big beautiful Jedi Temple with lots of students they'd be all "Oh God, this is just the Prequels all over again!" and walk out in the first 5 minutes. Include stuff from the PT, OT fans complain. Include stuff from the OT, OT fans still complain. Seriously, what's the point of trying to please an audience like that? How do you win? Best you give up on trying to please them and focus on your new audience who weren't out to hate the movie before it started. Do think samurai are compatible with gunslingers? Or with mystical cyborgs? Or crime family organizations? Just like I said, you run back to that false narrative of yours based solely on your own intolerant opinion. (The irony!)
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 22:37:48 GMT
A force equal in power to the Republic waging war on it for control over the Galaxy. Same as the separatists. No it isn't. It is. Big fleets duking it out, armies battling on planets. Huge Order of Jedi leading them as Generals, political stuff. That's all Prequel stuff and all stuff the OT fans would rip them to shreds over.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 22:38:43 GMT
Do think samurai are compatible with gunslingers? Or with mystical cyborgs? Or crime family organizations? They were when Star Wars was starting out and the fandom wasn't a hatedom. That sure changed over time. Now you can't even do stuff like have an independent heroine without the audience sneering at her because she isn't the bumbling sidekick of the former lead.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 23:01:24 GMT
No it isn't. Those failures are your opinion. Or do you not know that the prequels were box office successes. So are the Transformers movies. Next stupid question? What you define as political in SW is anything that the sequel trilogy didn't do as far as making factions. The only one creating no-win situations is you. Here's where you get caught in your lies again. So you're saying the OT fans wanted the OT cast doing physical roles because they DIDN'T want the new ST characters doing it. Yet lots of OT fans wanted fin to be a rogue Stormtrooper (or a bada$$ as you put it)... which happens to be a more physical role and characterization than a stooge. So which is it? Oh a tangled web we weave, when we first decide to deceive! In your case, your deceiving yourself about the credibility of much of your argument and how objective you think you are. Translation: lying again without proof Still waiting for proof of that claim... which will never come because it's a lie in the first place.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 23:06:00 GMT
Do think samurai are compatible with gunslingers? Or with mystical cyborgs? Or crime family organizations? They were when Star Wars was starting out and the fandom wasn't a hatedom. That sure changed over time. Now you can't even do stuff like have an independent heroine without the audience sneering at her because she isn't the bumbling sidekick of the former lead. Still lying... still no proof.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Apr 10, 2018 23:06:54 GMT
And if they had there be an Anti-Republic Faction or Invaders from another Galaxy, they'd be accused of just re-skinning the Separatists and Republic from the Prequels.
No-Win Scenario.
if there were "Invaders from another Galaxy" (like the Dominium, The Shadows etc) how would that be like the Separatist movement, it would be something completely different never seen in the movies. How would that be a no win situation? How can you create a false dilemma when you yourself point out a third option? Non sequitur Dude the idea of a threat existing outside of Galaxy that Star Wars is set in actually sounds like a pretty good idea. There's a lot of potential in a story like that. Hopefully one of those spin-off trilogies does something like that.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 23:14:38 GMT
So are the Transformers movies. Next stupid question? You brought up BO success, I countered it. The critical reaction shows more truth. The status of the Republic, the exact makeup of the First Order, how every single planet in the Galaxy is reacting, basically all the stuff that would've bogged down the storyline unnecessarily. The OT didn't need to tell us what the Old Republic was like or the exact makeup of the Empire. The PT got criticized for stuff like the Trade Federation and Galactic Tax Rates and stuff. Shows their hypocrisy. They'd clearly want him to come off as some tough badass...EXCEPT if he's in the same scene as any OT character whereupon he mustn't be shown as superior to any of them. Well it's true. OT fans were pissed off Rey could fly the Falcon at all, because that's Hans ship and ONLY his and it's disrespectful if anyone else does it (except maybe Lando). The implication being that it's insulting to replace ANYTHING Han does in the story with another character. Same reason they got pissed that Finn could even use the lightsaber, it was insulting to the Lore of the OT. The sheer intolerance? The reaction to the new movies is proof enough of that!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 23:15:45 GMT
They were when Star Wars was starting out and the fandom wasn't a hatedom. That sure changed over time. Now you can't even do stuff like have an independent heroine without the audience sneering at her because she isn't the bumbling sidekick of the former lead. Still lying... still no proof. Rey gets hated for being tough and independent. That means the OT fan audience want her to be the exact opposite of that (like how they want Finn to be the polar opposite of what he is), which is a useless bumbling sidekick who can't do anything on her own.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 23:17:10 GMT
if there were "Invaders from another Galaxy" (like the Dominium, The Shadows etc) how would that be like the Separatist movement, it would be something completely different never seen in the movies. How would that be a no win situation? How can you create a false dilemma when you yourself point out a third option? Non sequitur Dude the idea of a threat existing outside of Galaxy that Star Wars is set in actually sounds like a pretty good idea. The EU novels did that. The fandom was accepting because the OT leads stopped the invasion on their own and didn't need any help to do so, there was never a chance they'd die or be replaced by anyone else during the course of the struggle.
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 10, 2018 23:59:21 GMT
It's obvious he isn't actually interested in discussion. He just spins things back to the same argument regardless of whether it makes sense.
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
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Post by ryboto on Apr 11, 2018 0:01:59 GMT
-look at that, a semi concession! -I said nothing of the scenario you are describing. -Disney had so much to work with and they tied their own nuse by setting release dates ahead of having a story complete. They didn't allow for the creative process to happen, and so we got a rushed script with TFA. It just spiraled out of control with TLJ. Prequel fear just made them afraid of risk. So they took zero initially, and that mediocrity lead to the next guy subverting everything, which was the polar opposite and does complete disservice to fans. It's just an incredible shit storm of bad decisions. Whether you like it or not, the ST was going to be about new characters. For some reason the idea of Rey not being an independent heroine is disgusting to OT fans so in this scenario she must therefore be super-dependent, hence the "bumbling sidekick" part. See, this is the result of the crappy hand Disney was dealt AND an unpleasable fanbase. Go back and actually address my third point. Don't inject your buzz words, just address my points.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 11, 2018 0:02:23 GMT
You brought up BO success, I countered it. The critical reaction shows more truth. According to who? Except that the OT did tell us those things. I would elaborate but I'm tired of educating you about SW when you're so arrogant as think you have a more authoritative opinion about SW and the fanbase demographics... but keep demonstrating you don't. Just like you didn't know about the T-14 Skyhopper. Except that claim is a total lie. Early in TFA Finn says that he is trained in blasters. Yet he conveniently never has one whenever Rey is around. The only scene where Finn actually used a blaster was on Takadonna - a scene he shared with Han Solo who was also using a blaster. I dare you to find me one complaint from an OT fan about Finn sharing that scene with Han or stealing spotlight from him! I'll be waiting... (So much for your theory that OT fans are sensitive about their characters sharing the action). The reaction is based on crap writing and the Disneyfication. You would know that if you actually read the complaints... instead of parroting that false narrative full of holes and lies.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 11, 2018 0:10:19 GMT
You brought up BO success, I countered it. The critical reaction shows more truth. According to who? According to critics, for one. No they didn't. ANH didn't tell us jack except there was once a Republic and now there was an Empire. Nothing about whether the Empire was an invading force that took over or not. Please, Rey could've had some simulator she played with and you'd decry that. And naturally, Han is shown to be the better shot. IE, you dislike that the new characters are good at anything at all. Even your thing about Finn being some badass Stormtrooper is hypocrisy.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 11, 2018 0:18:34 GMT
Still lying... still no proof. Rey gets hated for being tough and independent. That means the OT fan audience want her to be the exact opposite of that (like how they want Finn to be the polar opposite of what he is), which is a useless bumbling sidekick who can't do anything on her own. Still lying... still showing no proof.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 11, 2018 0:28:40 GMT
According to critics, for one. Liar. You can't tell me what my reasons are for liking or disliking something. Liar.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 11, 2018 1:01:50 GMT
Rey gets hated for being tough and independent. That means the OT fan audience want her to be the exact opposite of that (like how they want Finn to be the polar opposite of what he is), which is a useless bumbling sidekick who can't do anything on her own. Still lying... still showing no proof. Every critique about Rey being too tough.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 11, 2018 1:04:41 GMT
All ANH tells us is that the Jedi Knights were wiped out, it never says how the Empire defeated the rest of the Republic's armies and fleets. Or where the Emperor came from to begin with. Truth. Rey can do no right according to you. Nope, Han is shown as the better combatant, a 70 year old man compared to a healthy 20-something. As far as OT fans are concerned, the ST cast shouldn't have been good at anything. Which explains the "incompetent bumbling sidekicks" stuff.
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