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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 30, 2018 16:25:18 GMT
Love the ending! It was daring and different, BUT... And maybe this is just unavoidable anyways, the Soul stone is most likely going to be used to as a Plot Point/MacGuffin in the next film to bring some characters back, so it does somewhat seem like a cop out and more just for shock effect. They weren't killed, just removed from the realm of the living. They'll find a way back because there aren't any bodies. Gamora, Loki, Heimdall, probably Vision. They were KIA, there shouldn't be any coming back from that. Simply vanishing from existence due to the effects of the gauntlet is easier to undo from a narrative standpoint. They aren't dead, just decommissioned as far as the story is concerned. Nobody complained when Han came back in ROTJ, I don't know why this should be any different.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 30, 2018 16:29:14 GMT
That's why the writing is so awful. If the only way to win was to give Thanos the time stone, then why even try to get the gauntlet off Thanos' hand? What if they had succeeded in getting the gauntlet off Thanos' hand before Strange could give Thanos the time stone? Would that have resulted in a losing scenario? If so, then it made no sense at all to even attempt to get the gauntlet off Thanos' hand since the risk of a losing scenario was too great. Like I said, really awful writing! If there was only one way to win, and Strange knew it...he knew that having them all involved in a fight, almost succeeding, having Thanos think that he "won" the stone, had to all be part of it. Scenario 983,473 had them succeed in getting the gauntlet off and he killed Tony in the fight afterwards, still got the gauntlet back, and still took the time stone. Scenario 745 had him kill Star Lord in order to keep him from screwing up, then Nebula, Mantis and Drax rebelled and that fight got them all killed. Scenario 643,779 had him just give Thanos the Time stone without the fight, Tony freaked out and tried to take it back, and both Tony and Nebula got killed by Thanos. Scenario 5,396 had him sacrifice Tony for the stone and ran. Thanos then killed the entirety of the human race instead of just half through a massive war. Scenario 23 had everything happen the same way as it did in the movie, and it still didn't work. But one option...just one...had everything happen the way it did in the movie...and that was the first step to defeating him. An even simpler explanation: He didn't see every scenario, he saw 14,000,000. There was still a small chance of success some other way so he has nothing to lose by playing it straight. Worst case scenario he gives the stone to Thanos because in the only winning scenario he witnessed, that's what happened. This isn't rocket science, that bozo you replied to is either a moron or being deliberately obtuse. It isn't worth your time explaining it to him.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2018 18:13:28 GMT
Love the ending! It was daring and different, BUT... And maybe this is just unavoidable anyways, the Soul stone is most likely going to be used to as a Plot Point/MacGuffin in the next film to bring some characters back, so it does somewhat seem like a cop out and more just for shock effect. They weren't killed, just removed from the realm of the living. They'll find a way back because there aren't any bodies. Gamora, Loki, Heimdall, probably Vision. They were KIA, there shouldn't be any coming back from that. Simply vanishing from existence due to the effects of the gauntlet is easier to undo from a narrative standpoint. They aren't dead, just decommissioned as far as the story is concerned. Nobody complained when Han came back in ROTJ, I don't know why this should be any different. Because it's a fundamentally different situation, and the comparison doesn't apply.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 30, 2018 18:48:12 GMT
Love the ending! It was daring and different, BUT... And maybe this is just unavoidable anyways, the Soul stone is most likely going to be used to as a Plot Point/MacGuffin in the next film to bring some characters back, so it does somewhat seem like a cop out and more just for shock effect. They weren't killed, just removed from the realm of the living. They'll find a way back because there aren't any bodies. There aren't any bodies because they're all DEAD. When people die, they eventually turn to dust. That's what happened to those Avengers who died when Thanos snapped his fingers. Nobody complained when Han came back in ROTJ, I don't know why this should be any different. Because Han Solo didn't die in ROTJ; he died in TFA. In ROTJ, Han Solo was just frozen in ice, like Steve Rogers was frozen in ice in First Avenger.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 30, 2018 19:16:47 GMT
They weren't killed, just removed from the realm of the living. They'll find a way back because there aren't any bodies. Gamora, Loki, Heimdall, probably Vision. They were KIA, there shouldn't be any coming back from that. Simply vanishing from existence due to the effects of the gauntlet is easier to undo from a narrative standpoint. They aren't dead, just decommissioned as far as the story is concerned. Nobody complained when Han came back in ROTJ, I don't know why this should be any different. Because it's a fundamentally different situation, and the comparison doesn't apply. How is it different? The heroes are taken off the board but they aren't dead. Han was effectively taken prisoner while the Marvel heroes are effectively wiped from existence. The gauntlet turned Mantis and Drax to mush earlier in the film and that was a temporary effect, why would fading from existence be any different (especially when we learn more about the essence of the stones in the next film)? I talked about this in another thread earlier today. Marvel expects the audience to understand not all of those deaths are permanent. Guardians 3 has been announced. Black Panther was just introduced and made a billion dollars. Spider-Man is finally part of the MCU. They know we know that. Otherwise why make the distinction between previous deaths that left corpses (Loki, Heimdall, Gamora) as opposed to fading away to ash? The fade is a reversible effect, just like the reality warping Drax and Mantis experienced. The audience is supposed to intuit that, otherwise there's no reason to make a distress call to Captain Marvel in the post credits. What's she going to do, bring a vacuum and clean up? Doctor Strange envisioned one winning scenario and in the end told Tony 'this was the only way.' These go beyond bread crumbs, they're telling the audience that the battle isn't over yet. Han got frozen in carbonite. The Marvel heroes just disappeared. No corpses. There's no difference at all in the context of their respective stories.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2018 19:50:55 GMT
Because it's a fundamentally different situation, and the comparison doesn't apply. How is it different? The heroes are taken off the board but they aren't dead. Han was effectively taken prisoner while the Marvel heroes are effectively wiped from existence. The gauntlet turned Mantis and Drax to mush earlier in the film and that was a temporary effect, why would fading from existence be any different (especially when we learn more about the essence of the stones in the next film)? I talked about this in another thread earlier today. Marvel expects the audience to understand not all of those deaths are permanent. Guardians 3 has been announced. Black Panther was just introduced and made a billion dollars. Spider-Man is finally part of the MCU. They know we know that. Otherwise why make the distinction between previous deaths that left corpses (Loki, Heimdall, Gamora) as opposed to fading away to ash? The fade is a reversible effect, just like the reality warping Drax and Mantis experienced. The audience is supposed to intuit that, otherwise there's no reason to make a distress call to Captain Marvel in the post credits. What's she going to do, bring a vacuum and clean up? Doctor Strange envisioned one winning scenario and in the end told Tony 'this was the only way.' These go beyond bread crumbs, they're telling the audience that the battle isn't over yet. Han got frozen in carbonite. The Marvel heroes just disappeared. No corpses. There's no difference at all in the context of their respective stories. Good points. I hadn't thought about it that way. I assumed Disney was just playing everyone for fools.
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Post by merh on May 1, 2018 0:10:44 GMT
Red skull wasnt a sacrifice. He rainbow bridge teleported I will see it again next week with my sister but i thought Skull referred to the sacrifice as cruel. I don't believe he has anything to sacrifice. He wasn't a sacrifice. Doesn't mean that what I said won't happen. I think that when the Soul Stone was taken, Red Skull was released from his imprisonment because there is nothing left to guard. Then when Thanos is defeated, the Soul Stone will return to the resting place, and Gamora will be chosen as the new Watcher. No. I meant he had nothing to sacrifice. He was so close to power, but it was cruelly outside his grasp forever. All Red Skull believed in was gaining power
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Post by sostie on May 1, 2018 0:21:13 GMT
Nobody complained when Han came back in ROTJ, I don't know why this should be any different. Because Han Solo didn't die in ROTJ; he died in TFA. In ROTJ, Han Solo was just frozen in ice, like Steve Rogers was frozen in ice in First Avenger. Ok then...Obi Wan in Empire Strikes Back...Yoda in TFA...Gandalf in LOTR series...Neo in Matrix franchise...Jon Snow in Game Of Thrones..Letty in FF franchise...Buffy in BTVS...Spock in Star Trek franchise...Superman in Justice League...Ripley in Alien Resurrection...Doctor Who 13 Times It's worked, and been accepted by most in the past.
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Post by CrepedCrusader on May 1, 2018 1:23:13 GMT
That was my biggest gripe with the movie. It's clear that at least some of the deaths are "fake deaths", and therefore every death could be a fake death. Hard to feel for the loss of characters when you know they might very well be back. Still a great movie, but I wish they hadn't done that.
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Post by Larcen26 on May 1, 2018 13:23:49 GMT
He wasn't a sacrifice. Doesn't mean that what I said won't happen. I think that when the Soul Stone was taken, Red Skull was released from his imprisonment because there is nothing left to guard. Then when Thanos is defeated, the Soul Stone will return to the resting place, and Gamora will be chosen as the new Watcher. No. I meant he had nothing to sacrifice. He was so close to power, but it was cruelly outside his grasp forever. All Red Skull believed in was gaining power Yes. Not sure why what you are saying negates what I am saying...
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 1, 2018 14:35:15 GMT
No. I meant he had nothing to sacrifice. He was so close to power, but it was cruelly outside his grasp forever. All Red Skull believed in was gaining power Yes. Not sure why what you are saying negates what I am saying... It doesn't. She's just some rambling old bag.
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Post by merh on May 2, 2018 0:08:13 GMT
Yes. Not sure why what you are saying negates what I am saying... It doesn't. She's just some rambling old bag. You are adorable. Not as adorable as my cats, but yeah. You know nothing you've said has upset me.
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Post by merh on May 2, 2018 0:17:46 GMT
No. I meant he had nothing to sacrifice. He was so close to power, but it was cruelly outside his grasp forever. All Red Skull believed in was gaining power Yes. Not sure why what you are saying negates what I am saying... You are talking Gamora/Nebula. I was saying it was a cruelty of the stone that a man who believed in power was that close to more power than he could ever imagine only to never be able to obtain it because he had nothing to sacrifice to obtain it. Not to mention it being 70-80 yrs. Yeah, I'm not sure I get it, but people are saying Nebula will save Gamora, but doesn't Nebula have to sacrifice something? Its like Spidey's death was excessively cruel because it had to cut to Stark's core.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 2, 2018 0:19:56 GMT
It doesn't. She's just some rambling old bag. You are adorable. Not as adorable as my cats, but yeah. You know nothing you've said has upset me. Nah, you're devastated by it.
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Post by Larcen26 on May 2, 2018 3:23:56 GMT
Yes. Not sure why what you are saying negates what I am saying... You are talking Gamora/Nebula. I was saying it was a cruelty of the stone that a man who believed in power was that close to more power than he could ever imagine only to never be able to obtain it because he had nothing to sacrifice to obtain it. Not to mention it being 70-80 yrs. Yeah, I'm not sure I get it, but people are saying Nebula will save Gamora, but doesn't Nebula have to sacrifice something? Its like Spidey's death was excessively cruel because it had to cut to Stark's core. The stone is gone. No sacrifice is needed anymore. With nothing to watch/guard, Red Skull is released and allowed to die, or wander, or gain a new punishment... Or any other number of rules they can create for how Gamora could be the "Watcher" instead of Red Skull.
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Post by merh on May 3, 2018 0:28:42 GMT
You are talking Gamora/Nebula. I was saying it was a cruelty of the stone that a man who believed in power was that close to more power than he could ever imagine only to never be able to obtain it because he had nothing to sacrifice to obtain it. Not to mention it being 70-80 yrs. Yeah, I'm not sure I get it, but people are saying Nebula will save Gamora, but doesn't Nebula have to sacrifice something? Its like Spidey's death was excessively cruel because it had to cut to Stark's core. The stone is gone. No sacrifice is needed anymore. With nothing to watch/guard, Red Skull is released and allowed to die, or wander, or gain a new punishment... Or any other number of rules they can create for how Gamora could be the "Watcher" instead of Red Skull. He was sent there by the Tesseract. He doesnt possess the ability to leave
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Post by Larcen26 on May 3, 2018 1:34:20 GMT
The stone is gone. No sacrifice is needed anymore. With nothing to watch/guard, Red Skull is released and allowed to die, or wander, or gain a new punishment... Or any other number of rules they can create for how Gamora could be the "Watcher" instead of Red Skull. He was sent there by the Tesseract. He doesnt possess the ability to leave Who says he leaves under his own power?
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Post by merh on May 3, 2018 6:21:50 GMT
He was sent there by the Tesseract. He doesnt possess the ability to leave Who says he leaves under his own power? There was someone else there to save him? Or you predicting the next movie?
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Post by Larcen26 on May 3, 2018 19:59:25 GMT
Who says he leaves under his own power? There was someone else there to save him? Or you predicting the next movie? Predicting the next movie. And who said he got saved? I think he probably crumbled to dust.
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