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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 6:42:43 GMT
I have already gone over this debate with Erj. I and him do not agree on homosexuality. He knows my opposition to his views.
I am focusing on the fact that you have a positive dislike for the fact that Transgenders are included in LGBT. As a matter of fact you bring these talks of "projections of ego". If anything you should think about your own ego involved in shaping your views and how absurd some of the points you have brought have been.
They treat transgenders like crap. And from what I've gathered transgenders are the only ones in "LGBT" who can't help it. No choice with them. Only some of them do not treat transgenders well. Skyhawk, Captain Bryce, Hadmatter and many other members on our board as well as gay activists around the world are fully fine with accepting Transgenders. Some may not accept them and generally view them with criticism or contempt.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 29, 2018 6:50:26 GMT
They treat transgenders like crap. And from what I've gathered transgenders are the only ones in "LGBT" who can't help it. No choice with them. Only some of them do not treat transgenders well. Skyhawk, Captain Bryce, Hadmatter and many other members on our board as well as gay activists around the world are fully fine with accepting Transgenders. Some may not accept them and generally view them with criticism or contempt. Okay, you got me there, Aj. Some of them. When I was new to the old board back in '05, I got into religious arguments with a poster whom I later found out was transgender. Some of you may guess who this poster was. Gameboy will certainly remember. Anyway, I felt badly that I may have used the wrong pronoun, so I wrote to him by PM and learned that I was originally correct, and he was male in a female body. He told me something that validated what I had previously suspected, that the transgenders were only being used by the "gay" movement to advance their political agenda. If you look around on the Internet, you might find similar grievances being expressed.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 6:51:29 GMT
You have as a matter of fact not understood the movement itself. No one is claiming that transgender is about sexuality. The LGBT movement is about providing equal rights to people of LGBT community. You are automatically lumping homosexual people into a secondary classification, which in a sense sees them as second class citizens due to their "sexuality", because they are not seen as one of you\them\they, which is heterosexual\straight, which must then be the primary. How condescending and patronizing, not to mention phony. That is not the entire community, which makes up many facets of life and HAS NO compartmentalization. Who are you to speak for a so-called movement, that many gay people may not even care to be a part of, or get lumped into because they are not 'normal' you, especially something that you HAVE NO FULL UNDERSTANDING OF, since you so 'pridefully' claim you are straight? What are these equal rights in the West, that gay people don't have? And don't even mention about being prejudiced or victimized against, because you can't tell others how to feel about something, or make them see it the way you think it should be. I am not lumping homosexual people into a secondary classification by any means. I don't think anyone involved in LGBT do. Where do you even get these thoughts from?
As a matter of fact I consider homosexual people to fully the same as I am as far as it concerns their rights. Just like any other human beings.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 6:56:54 GMT
I have already gone over this debate with Erj. I and him do not agree on homosexuality. He knows my opposition to his views.
I am focusing on the fact that you have a positive dislike for the fact that Transgenders are included in LGBT. As a matter of fact you bring these talks of "projections of ego". If anything you should think about your own ego involved in shaping your views and how absurd some of the points you have brought have been.
I think my views just push a button with you, that is why you comment on them, in a sad attempt to refute what you don't agree with, or even fully understand, you big striaghty you. I see your views as absurd, so what is the difference, especially since you are not homo, so have no freakin' idea of what you are talking about regarding homosexuality?
My views were the same on the issue even before I ever met you. I am for restoring the rights of people who are robbed of their rights because of either laws or prejudices and hatred of others.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 29, 2018 7:00:26 GMT
I think my views just push a button with you, that is why you comment on them, in a sad attempt to refute what you don't agree with, or even fully understand, you big striaghty you. I see your views as absurd, so what is the difference, especially since you are not homo, so have no freakin' idea of what you are talking about regarding homosexuality?
My views were the same on the issue even before I ever met you. I am for restoring the rights of people who are robbed of their rights because of either laws or prejudices and hatred of others.
Do you ever get this clammy feeling that Toasted Cheese is Bucky? I do.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 7:01:50 GMT
I am not lumping homosexual people into a secondary classification by any means. I don't think anyone involved in LGBT do. Where do you even get these thoughts from?
As a matter of fact I consider homosexual people to full the same as I am. Just like any other human being.
Where do you get the LGBT community, where is it and why are you categorizing people by sexuality? If you were 100% homo, you may feel the same way about T being a part of what is seen as the homo movement, or you may not, but don't tell homosexuals— when you are not—how they should feel about their own sexuality and whatever challenges they have faced due to this. I am not telling you anything about how you should feel about your sexuality. Enjoy your sexuality. Everyone should. If anything I am telling other people (the homophobes) not to come in your way and tell you what you should do.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 7:04:36 GMT
My views were the same on the issue even before I ever met you. I am for restoring the rights of people who are robbed of their rights because of either laws or prejudices and hatred of others.
Do you ever get this clammy feeling that Toasted Cheese is Bucky? I do. Not really. Toasted Cheese is more educated and as a matter of fact holds good opinions on many issues. I do not agree with him on two issues - Transgendersm and existence of misogyny in society. I find him fine otherwise.
Bucky was a Canadian and a man-boy. I mean he had a brain of 13 year old but he was a grown up adult.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 29, 2018 7:10:37 GMT
Do you ever get this clammy feeling that Toasted Cheese is Bucky? I do. Not really. Toasted Cheese is more educated and as a matter of fact holds good opinions on many issues. I do not agree with him on two issues - Transgendersm and existence of misogyny in society. I find him fine otherwise.
Bucky was a Canadian and a man-boy. I mean he had a brain of 13 year old but he was a grown up adult.
Or maybe he has simply adapted with the times. I'm not saying it is him, but it could be.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 7:12:43 GMT
My views were the same on the issue even before I ever met you. I am for restoring the rights of people who are robbed of their rights because of either laws or prejudices and hatred of others.
Well, aren't you just a knight in shining armour. Have they asked you to do this for them? And you have never met me, so what are you talking about? We converse through words on the internet only. Why not? The gays that I interacted with online have been fine with me and my views on LGBT. I had met 2 gays when I was doing my Masters in Melbourne. While they didn't specifically ask me to do anything for them they were totally fine with my views. Granted that I was not very close to them as they were not in my course. When the voting for gay rights happened in Australia then many people from LGBT were in my university campus and I met them and we had a good time. Are you sure they didn't encourage people for a yes vote?
Here's a thing toasted cheese - I know you are an Australian. If you are from Melbourne then come meet me or ask me to meet you anywhere in the city. We can know each other better.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 7:20:57 GMT
I am not telling you anything about how you should feel about your sexuality. Enjoy your sexuality. Everyone should. If anything I am telling other people (the homophobes) not to come in your way and tell you what you should do.While those intentions may be well and good, do you really think the homophobe is really going to give a rats? I couldn't care less about the homophobes. I can address the attitude and challenge it, but unless I am violated violently, I am not going to be precious about it. You can't tell others anything, they have to grow into things themselves. I am not judging myself for whatever attitudes I have, be it perceived as right\wrong, positive\negative\, good\bad, because if that is the way I feel about something, then so be it, as that is all it is. If others want to judge me for anything, that is their prerogative and their issue not mine. Sure. A homophobe couldn't give a rats. But are all people like that? As a matter of fact you are talking to a former homophobe. There was a time when I was young and taught by others to look down upon gays. I even opposed them online on message boards or in college campuses (though not virulent hater at any-time). But when I was about 21 and left my home town for Delhi then things changed. I interacted with people who made sense. I was away from my small hometown and there were people more empathetic and understanding of the issue. Ever since 2008 (when I was 22) I have become a firm supporter of LGBT rights. While everyone can't change people do change.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 7:32:52 GMT
Why not? The gays that I interacted with online have been fine with me and my views on LGBT. I had met 2 gays when I was doing my Masters in Melbourne. While they didn't specifically ask me to do anything for them they were totally fine with my views. Granted that I was not very close to them as they were not in my course. When the voting for gay rights happened in Australia then many people from LGBT were in my university campus and I met them and we had a good time. Are you sure they didn't encourage people for a yes vote?
Here's a thing toasted cheese - I know you are an Australian. If you are from Melbourne then come meet me or ask me to meet you anywhere in the city. We can know each other better.
You have met 2 gays. Wow! What an event that must've been. Even when you refer to them as gays, it sounds sort of patronizing. I wonder if these dudes were straight and you were talking to somebody about them, would you have commented.... "I met 2 straight guys", or, "I met 2 breeder males"....? Why didn't you just meet with 2 guys in your mind, instead of categorizing them? At least you got their approval, as that appears to be what you are seeking, as per the topic of you thread. Must be some insecurity issues going on as well there.
You do know that not all gay people care for same sex marriage and the whole plebiscite vote thing, was just an absurd, agenda driven and bigoted move by the Turnbull government? I refused to participate and still have the unopened envelope ballot. I wonder if it will be worth jack, in a few decades to come?
I met 2 gays at my university because I was a sort of bookish boy and usually didn't attend cultural events. They were gays like you. I also met other gays during same sex marriage voting campaigns and listened to them and agreed with them and they agreed with my views.
As for second para once again you just make a claim. Something is an agenda....wooooo. It's so easy to make a statement. Once again, an extremely minority opinion. The whole country became beautiful in the rainbow colours and LGBT and straight people interacted a lot and cheered for the cause. But yeah, everything is agenda!
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 7:46:22 GMT
I met 2 gays at my university because I was a sort of bookish boy and usually didn't attend cultural events. They were gays like you. I also met other gays during same sex marriage voting campaigns and listened to them and agreed with them and they agreed with my views.
As for second para once again you just make a claim. Something is an agenda....wooooo. It's so easy to make a statement. Once again, an extremely minority opinion. The whole country became beautiful in the rainbow colours and LGBT and straight people interacted a lot and cheered for the cause. But yeah, everything is agenda!
Everything has an agenda, even this LGBT movement thing.
How do you know they were gays like me? Pleased they agreed with you, not everyone will. That is what your entire shtick appears to be about, having others on your side. Is this about neglect issues, or guilt over previous attitudes you have possessed? All I can say, is stop it! Why judge yourself for what once was, or you will judge others in the process.
You appear to have an obsession with gay rights and now the rainbow thing otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to bring it up. You are only standing on the sidelines and DO NOT FULLY understand.
When I said 'gays like you' I meant this 100% gay thing that you mentioned previously. Obviously different people will have different views. But it's not always a matter of simply agreeing about disagreeing. If you feel more strongly about something then you work harder to bring a change. The efforts have paid for LGBT people at least in the western society. They are being more accepted now than they were 40 or even 20 years ago. Sure LGBT movement may have some agenda like almost all movements but that doesn't make the movement wrong. It's about restoring rights of LGBT people and it is doing that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 8:41:17 GMT
I don`t have an opinion about this.
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Post by phludowin on Jul 29, 2018 11:33:07 GMT
My two cents, although I'm a bit late to the party.
In my opinion, the LGBT, or LGBTIQA, or whatever acronym is chosen, is an umbrella term for anyone who challenges the heterosexist norm.
The heterosexist norm, in my opinion, can be characterized like this. 1. There are exactly two genders (male, female). 2. Every human being has exactly one gender, with biological and social/psychological gender being identical. 3. Every human being is only attracted to members of the other gender.
Sounds very rigid; but from statistics I read and from what I see when looking around me, I guess that this applies to about 80% of the human population. Maybe more, maybe less.
So anybody who does not fulfill all points of the heterosexist norm falls into an LGBTIQA category. Lesbians, gays and bisexuals do not fulfill point 3, transsexuals do not fulfill point 2.
Therefore, from my point of view, as a cisgendered straight-oriented male, there is no dragging down from people who do not fulfill the same points as others.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 29, 2018 11:40:28 GMT
My two cents, although I'm a bit late to the party. In my opinion, the LGBT, or LGBTIQA, or whatever acronym is chosen, is an umbrella term for anyone who challenges the heterosexist norm. The heterosexist norm, in my opinion, can be characterized like this. 1. There are exactly two genders (male, female). 2. Every human being has exactly one gender, with biological and social/psychological gender being identical. 3. Every human being is only attracted to members of the other gender. Sounds very rigid; but from statistics I read and from what I see when looking around me, I guess that this applies to about 80% of the human population. Maybe more, maybe less. So anybody who does not fulfill all points of the heterosexist norm falls into an LGBTIQA category. Lesbians, gays and bisexuals do not fulfill point 3, transsexuals do not fulfill point 2. Therefore, from my point of view, as a cisgendered straight-oriented male, there is no dragging down from people who do not fulfill the same points as others. Well thought-out post, PHE_de. You used a good word "Challenges". The same as advocating for full rights of these people.
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Post by phludowin on Jul 29, 2018 11:49:24 GMT
My two cents, although I'm a bit late to the party. In my opinion, the LGBT, or LGBTIQA, or whatever acronym is chosen, is an umbrella term for anyone who challenges the heterosexist norm. The heterosexist norm, in my opinion, can be characterized like this. 1. There are exactly two genders (male, female). 2. Every human being has exactly one gender, with biological and social/psychological gender being identical. 3. Every human being is only attracted to members of the other gender. Sounds very rigid; but from statistics I read and from what I see when looking around me, I guess that this applies to about 80% of the human population. Maybe more, maybe less. So anybody who does not fulfill all points of the heterosexist norm falls into an LGBTIQA category. Lesbians, gays and bisexuals do not fulfill point 3, transsexuals do not fulfill point 2. Therefore, from my point of view, as a cisgendered straight-oriented male, there is no dragging down from people who do not fulfill the same points as others. Well though-out post, PHE_de. You used a good word "Challenges". The same as advocating for full rights of these people. Thanks. LGBTIQA people should have the same rights. LGB are on a good path in civilized countries, with marriage for all; and less and less people who consider them sick. About the other letters... I don't know exactly where they are. About 20 years ago I heard a lecture from an intersexual, saying that there are still plenty of parents who decide to surgically and hormonally have their children "fixed", when they happen to have male and female traits; like XXY chromosomes. Maybe it's less bad today than 20 years ago; but the rigid male/female dichotomy is still too prevalent in large parts of the society. The fight for LGBTIQA rights has come a long way, but is not over. In my opinion it will only be over when it is universally accepted that it doesn't matter for your rights what gender you biologically are, identify with, or are attracted to.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 30, 2018 7:46:13 GMT
Why not? The gays that I interacted with online have been fine with me and my views on LGBT. I had met 2 gays when I was doing my Masters in Melbourne. While they didn't specifically ask me to do anything for them they were totally fine with my views. Granted that I was not very close to them as they were not in my course. When the voting for gay rights happened in Australia then many people from LGBT were in my university campus and I met them and we had a good time. Are you sure they didn't encourage people for a yes vote?
Here's a thing toasted cheese - I know you are an Australian. If you are from Melbourne then come meet me or ask me to meet you anywhere in the city. We can know each other better.
You have met 2 gays. Wow! What an event that must've been. Even when you refer to them as gays, it sounds sort of patronizing. I wonder if these dudes were straight and you were talking to somebody about them, would you have commented.... "I met 2 straight guys", or, "I met 2 breeder males"....? Why didn't you just meet with 2 guys in your mind, instead of categorizing them? At least you got their approval, as that appears to be what you are seeking, as per the topic of you thread. Must be some insecurity issues going on as well there.
You do know that not all gay people care for same sex marriage and the whole plebiscite vote thing, was just an absurd, agenda driven and bigoted move by the Turnbull government? I refused to participate and still have the unopened envelope ballot. I wonder if it will be worth jack, in a few decades to come?
I would be one of those gay people. Always liked the idea of a boyfriend and still do, but the idea of gay marriage just seemed like a big farce. I'm happy for those guys and gals who have gone through it because obviously it was very important to them, but it's not for me. Plus, I could never go through with actually having a wedding and having to express yourself and your deepest, most sincere feelings towards your loved one, in front of 100 happy crying people, all eyes on you and then you're supposed to kiss each other and then everybody applauds and then you feed each other cake. I know I can be indiscreet, an open book, full of opinions, etc., but there is something almost unholy about some of those wedding rituals. And the big, brassy, expensive weddings? Forget that noise! It's just one of the few things about myself that I would always, always want to keep very, very private. Like religion. It's too special to be paraded about. But maybe that's just me.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 30, 2018 11:06:28 GMT
I know you have some major hangups about gays.
What about you? Are you gay? The way you get so upset about it make me and most of the board wonder if you are or not.
No, I'm not gay. Gay is a perversion. Gay people are sick people, and I'm not sick. Next question, Father Jack Brother Nelson Brock Leroy. ^He Gay!
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Post by phludowin on Jul 30, 2018 18:51:35 GMT
My two cents, although I'm a bit late to the party. In my opinion, the LGBT, or LGBTIQA, or whatever acronym is chosen, is an umbrella term for anyone who challenges the heterosexist norm. The heterosexist norm, in my opinion, can be characterized like this. 1. There are exactly two genders (male, female). 2. Every human being has exactly one gender, with biological and social/psychological gender being identical. 3. Every human being is only attracted to members of the other gender. Sounds very rigid; but from statistics I read and from what I see when looking around me, I guess that this applies to about 80% of the human population. Maybe more, maybe less. So anybody who does not fulfill all points of the heterosexist norm falls into an LGBTIQA category. Lesbians, gays and bisexuals do not fulfill point 3, transsexuals do not fulfill point 2. Therefore, from my point of view, as a cisgendered straight-oriented male, there is no dragging down from people who do not fulfill the same points as others. That is an interesting take, but what about the LGBTIQA within itself? What it represents for many that choose to associate with these acronyms, are fundamentally telling others what they need identify as, because they are not the heterosexist norm. What if a homosexual person doesn't like the gay or lesbian term\label? Why should a Transgendered person, who is technically rejecting their birth sex\gender, be an aspect of what homosexuality represents? It can give out incorrect signals to the ignorant straight herd. Genuine homosexuality embraces the sex\gender one is born with? Transgender goes into a deeper psychological issue realm about the physical not being correct and IS NOT a sexuality. But it is still a deviation from the heterosexist norm. In my opinion, people to whom an LGBTIQA label applies, have something in common: They are sometimes discriminated against for deviating from the heterosexist norm; and they want to be accepted for what and who they are. In a perfect world there would be no heterosexist norm. People could be whatever gender they are, identify with whatever gender they feel, and be attracted to people of any gender; and nobody would discriminate them for it. I believe that most LGBTIQA activists more or less want this too. So it makes sense to unite forces.
Since you also claim to be a cisgendered straight-orientated male and are not a part of this confounded 'umbrella' term, how can you claim to speak for how cisgendered homo-orientated males feel about being dragged down or not? The OP specifically asked for the opinion of straight people. While I am technically not straight but straight oriented (I never had a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone else; but on average I find women more attractive than men), I thought I'd share my opinion.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Aug 2, 2018 16:15:08 GMT
But it is still a deviation from the heterosexist norm. In my opinion, people to whom an LGBTIQA label applies, have something in common: They are sometimes discriminated against for deviating from the heterosexist norm; and they want to be accepted for what and who they are. In a perfect world there would be no heterosexist norm. People could be whatever gender they are, identify with whatever gender they feel, and be attracted to people of any gender; and nobody would discriminate them for it. I believe that most LGBTIQA activists more or less want this too. So it makes sense to unite forces.
The OP specifically asked for the opinion of straight people. While I am technically not straight but straight oriented (I never had a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone else; but on average I find women more attractive than men), I thought I'd share my opinion.You identify as straight, but from your statement, you are implying that you have bisexual tendencies, but have not acted upon them. In other words, you are in touch with your inner homo, but choose to fly straight. I believe many men will choose this route as well, due to the construct of what is seen as 'normative' in society. I guess I have been lucky in the sense that I don't have a swinging pendulum. I may have struggled to accept my sexuality for the longest time, but it was undeniably ingrained and etched into my physical being. I had no choice. I feel it must be more difficult for bisexual men, because they will be more torn about what they really want. At least bisexual men who have children, would be more compassionate if they have gay kids—or I would like to think that they would.
For the straight herd to see a sexuality as a deviation—and I am not talking about all the other confounded attributes that have been included into the LGB alphabet soup—is still taking a condescending approach to what they only believe to be normal. Yes, I agree! In a perfect world, it wouldn't be compartmentalized as something different, but being an activist for the delusions of the other labels and tags that has nothing to do with the notion of sexual attraction for either male, female or both, is missing the essence, getting astray and is way too complex. It does not do any favors for those that are homosexual or are in touch with their homosexual side. Anything outside of LGB, does not appear relevant to me, so I don't care for the movement whatsoever, whatever and wherever it is.
Just a question, since I haven't had much contact with the LG community in the past 25 years, what does the IQA stand for?
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