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Post by charzhino on Oct 18, 2018 10:21:48 GMT
Seen a this Youtube video by Vox which was trending pretty high yesterday (and still is), but basically saying how the MCU world building is not very well constructed. It has gathered 1 million + views and a big reaction.
Its just under 10 mins long but I recommend starting from minute 4 onwards, as the first 4 minutes is jus Marvel comics publication history.
Basically the narrator is saying that the MCU's cross over and world building is very shallow and superficial to the point it feels empty without any real tangibility. He highlights that a lot of the so called crossover potential is only limited to passing references of characters in the various individual solo films. For example Hank Pym mentioning Stark in Antman for a few seconds then forgetting about him for the remaining duration of the movie. Or Spiderman in Homecoming mocking the criminals wearing Avenger masks. ''The universe is only as deep as some of its merchandise'' .
There are multiple other examples littered throughout many MCU movies but the video says all this just creates hype for crossovers, not actual universe building or good storytelling to create said universe.
''The MCU has no rules beyond corporate ownership''. The narrator goes onto say if you added Aquaman to Infinity War no one would notice. Conversely if you add Hawkeye to Justice League no one would care either. This is because the DCEU has also the same mechanics of world building as the MCU the video goes onto say. That Wonder Woman clip of her opening emails lasts for a few seconds, and this is totally forgotten about for the rest of the movie. The DCEU has the same problems in building effective intertwined universes just as the MCU does.
The video then goes onto point out 1 comic franchise that does achieve this aspect in the right way: the X-men movie franchise.
''Every character, human and mutant has taken sides in a generations long battle, with real stakes unlike Marvels Civil War''
''This allows decade jumping and tonal experimentation shifts but with deep integration to the X-men mythology.''
A good example is the X-men cameo at the mansion in Deadpool 2. Now on the surface it would seem like this is very similar to something like Captain Americas cameo on a gym video in Homecoming. Both last a few seconds and provide a good laugh for the audience. Unlike the throway Cap cameo, it is more believable for Deadpool 2 sharing a world with Xmen because Wade Wlsons story is still deeply entrenched in X-men lore. The tone of Deadpool 2 may be completely opposite of the mainline films, but the character still inhabits the same world that other X-men have/do exist because the world building is more than just superficial name drops, Easter egg nods or merchandise fan servicing.
Thoughts on the video?
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Post by DSDSquared on Oct 18, 2018 12:00:44 GMT
No other franchise in movie history has handled an expanded universe better than the MCU so far.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 18, 2018 12:37:19 GMT
No other franchise in movie history has handled an expanded universe better than the MCU so far. The same people who are complaining the connectivity is shallow are the same ones who say every movie is just a commercial for the other films. When they aren't complaining about how every movie is about Iron Man, they're asking why (insert character here) doesn't call Iron Man for help in every film. |
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Post by scabab on Oct 18, 2018 12:41:14 GMT
I think they've done a great job all things considered. It's not like a comic where they can easily have other characters show up for lengthy periods. Here a ton of money has to be spent, they may be able to mention Stark in an Ant-man movie but to actually have him in it would cost like $50 million.
And the Stark and Avengers lines may have just been a insignificant passing comment, but the movie did have an opening scene set in 1989 at the Triskelion building from Winter Soldier, with an older Howard Stark, brought back from Iron Man 2, and Peggy Carter brought back from Captain America.
They also had a scene with Falcon at the Avengers HQ which first appeared in Age of Ultron.
So he very much feels a part of that world to me.
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Post by charzhino on Oct 18, 2018 13:19:26 GMT
The same people who are complaining the connectivity is shallow are the same ones who say every movie is just a commercial for the other films. The point being made in the video is that the connectivity is shallow because the movies seem like commercials for the next one. Theres no genuine world building, its either in the form of fan service easter eggs, selling merchandise or hype for a future crossover ensemble. And this detracts from the individual movies story telling. Aquaman could appear in Infinity War 2 and he wouldnt look out of place. Why...because the world thats built in the MCU is superficial with no consistent undercurrent. Characters like Aquaman can come in and fit in straight away because there is no unifying feature that brings togther the characters. They all just seem randomly plucked outta thin air and thrown together. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 18, 2018 14:28:05 GMT
The same people who are complaining the connectivity is shallow are the same ones who say every movie is just a commercial for the other films. The point being made in the video is that the connectivity is shallow because the movies seem like commercials for the next one. Theres no genuine world building, its either in the form of fan service easter eggs, selling merchandise or hype for a future crossover ensemble. And this detracts from the individual movies story telling. Aquaman could appear in Infinity War 2 and he wouldnt look out of place. Why...because the world thats built in the MCU is superficial with no consistent undercurrent. Characters like Aquaman can come in and fit in straight away because there is no unifying feature that brings togther the characters. They all just seem randomly plucked outta thin air and thrown together. How are they randomly plucked out of thin air? Before The Avengers, each character either had their own film or were featured in another character's film. That's the definition of world building. People complain about Iron Man 2 being an ad for The Avengers, but Black Widow simply showing up unexplained in Avengers would be the equivalent of your Aquaman scenario. I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that there is no genuine world building. The plot to Civil War and Infinity War revolve around the events that transpired in previous films. Winter Soldier is set up by TFA. They aren't just hitting the reset button every time like DCEU or X-Men films. The interconnectivity is present but the individual films are still allowed to breathe. The worst part of AoU was the forced Infinity Stone scene, and for the most part they've kept stuff like that for post-credit sequences. The worst part of Ant-Man was the contrived Falcon sequence, but for the purposes of this conversation, was that fan service or hype? There doesn't seem to be a middle ground with this critique; scenes like this are either easter eggs with no value or they're detracting from the story's ability to find its own voice. More Falcon makes it a sales pitch while no Falcon at all strengthens the argument that they're pulling characters out of thin air when Ant-Man shows up in CW. The ultimate 'out of thin air' character is Spider-Man, and that was due to issues with rights to the character. Speaking of Spidey, how should we view Iron Man's presence in Homecoming? If it isn't world building, which is it? Should Iron Man be absent so people can ask why Tony isn't helping the kid he recruited in CW, or should it be a straight up team-up film so people can bitch about Homecoming feeling like an Iron Man film? Look, I'm not Archie, I'm not suggesting any of these films are flawless or that Marvel has handled the entire process perfectly. I simply disagree with the premise of this particular critique. To me, the MCU (for the most part) handles the interconnectivity as well as can be expected in a cinematic universe with this much going on. The characters are allowed to find their own way, but still keep the threads to other plot lines attached for continuity's sake. Characters are introduced into the story to become part of the larger narrative later as it evolves. It's a no-win situation if the only options are tell each story separately or have every story feature every character all of the time. |
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Post by bud47 on Oct 18, 2018 15:03:29 GMT
I was wondering when you were going to post this. Saw this last weekend. What took you so long? You usually jump on these MCU-bashing opportunities much more quickly.
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Post by hobowar on Oct 18, 2018 16:27:19 GMT
Q. Why the Marvel Cinematic Universe feels empty
A. Because I'm an idiot and lack basic comprehension skills
I didn't watch that morons video, but I can imagine this is what it boils down to.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 18, 2018 16:32:56 GMT
Sure the commectivity is shallow... but only if you compare it to comicbooks or cartoon tv shows. As far as movies are concerned, no other movie multiverse has been able to accomplish anywhere near what the MCU has done.
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Post by hobowar on Oct 18, 2018 16:55:34 GMT
Continuity? What continuity? - The X-Men Universe
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Oct 18, 2018 18:17:39 GMT
Well the responses on this thread have totally dismantled this criticism of the MCU. It was just another broad complaint about the MCU that could not stand up to the most simple analysis. If you don't like the MCU, don't watch it but stop groping around for a valid criticism that will convince people to agree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 18:32:43 GMT
Charzhino, we get it. You hate the MCU and want it to die. We don't, and we will continue to pay the theater the price of the ticket to get in and see new entries in the series. Nothing you post is ever going to change any of our minds.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Oct 18, 2018 18:40:45 GMT
Lol you must have hit pretty close to the mark to get the fanboys all riled up like that. The MCU feels empty because it's derivative to the mark. The source material and characters are derivative. The formula is derivative. The art design and music are derivative. That simple really. If you look for a huge, decades old shared universe with challenging ideas, concepts and art design check out Star Trek. That one at least does not mess up it's canon and timeline that much.  |
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Post by charzhino on Oct 18, 2018 18:59:43 GMT
I was wondering when you were going to post this. Saw this last weekend. What took you so long? You usually jump on these MCU-bashing opportunities much more quickly. Great response, fantastic analysis bud. I forgot criticising, sorry "bashing" the MCU is forbidden on this board. Maybe you're input is better suited to the many MCU safe space boards scattered around the internet. |
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Post by charzhino on Oct 18, 2018 19:02:03 GMT
Charzhino, we get it. You hate the MCU and want it to die. We don't, and we will continue to pay the theater the price of the ticket to get in and see new entries in the series. Nothing you post is ever going to change any of our minds. Try contributing to the discussion like others instead of attacking the messenger. I didnt create the video, its a fairly popular one which was on trending. So just because its anti MCU (its actually anti DCEU as well) i shouldn't be allowed to post it here? You havent changed 1 bit |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 19:49:08 GMT
I'm torn.
Overrated and underrated are red flags to me because they're a function of popularity. It's a criticism (a term I use loosely in this case) because it exists as a consequence of its popularity and simply wouldn't exist if the movies didn't sell. I don't even consider Batman v Superman overrated because whether it sold 800 million or 8 million at the box office, it's the same movie.
So I reject the premise that the Marvel universe feels empty.
I do think that the Marvel movies have gotten a little tighter in their plot foreshadowing. The trend at the beginning was to slip them into the post-credits scene. Not anymore.
I think the Marvel movies are in the similar stages of a sitcom in its 5th or 6th season. The time for introductions and filler episodes is over; they're in the throes of the story they're telling and it can only work if you're up to date. Otherwise it can be difficult to follow, even if you're up to date on the previous entries of a specific franchise. Doctor Strange appearing in Thor Ragnarok is a good example. Civil War is another.
There's more going on in those movies than you can understand from watching the previous two Thor or Captain America movies. They're not standalone movies anymore, which means it's not good enough to be up to date on the Thor movies; the answer to why Benedict Cumberbatch showed up in Thor Ragnarok is only answered by watching a movie unrelated to Thor.
The X-Men cameo in Deadpool 2 is not a good example. I really enjoyed Deadpool 2 but it's less accessible than the first because of inside jokes like that. If you don't know Josh Brolin plays Thanos, "Zip it, Thanos!" has less meaning. If you don't know that Black Widow sings a lullaby to Hulk, Deadpool quoting that lullaby on Juggernaut's shoulders isn't as funny. Even in the credits, if you don't watch Stranger Things you won't understand why Deadpool called Negasonic Teenage Warhead "Eleven". Thor Ragnarok and Civil War are the entries (for me) that require the strongest understanding of the continuity up until then to appreciate them as they're meant to be.
Lets not get it twisted, I love the Deadpool movies but I do think that Deadpool was a movie for everybody while Deadpool 2 had more inside jokes for fans. Similarly, the longer the MCU goes, the more its movies are concerned with keeping the fans it has instead of attracting new ones. I think they do a really good job, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. The Doctor Strange cameo in Thor Ragnarok walks a fine line between working it into the plot (setting up the next movie while giving Thor and Loki the pretense to find Odin in Norway) and interrupting its own movie with a trailer for the next one. It's almost an artistic compromise.
A lot of what else he says about corporate ownership and being limited by the rules of business and having that be the driving creating force is just common sense.
I gotta say though, much as I enjoy these movies, I don't think I can handle another 20. I don't even know if I can handle anymore beyond the next 3.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 20:37:42 GMT
Charzhino, we get it. You hate the MCU and want it to die. We don't, and we will continue to pay the theater the price of the ticket to get in and see new entries in the series. Nothing you post is ever going to change any of our minds. Try contributing to the discussion like others instead of attacking the messenger. I didnt create the video, its a fairly popular one which was on trending. So just because its anti MCU (its actually anti DCEU as well) i shouldn't be allowed to post it here? You havent changed 1 bit I would, except you don't want a discussion. This is about pushing your opinion on everyone who disagrees with you in the hopes you'll get us all to stop going to MCU films. So... don't even bother with the pretense. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 18, 2018 20:41:44 GMT
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Post by bud47 on Oct 18, 2018 20:43:26 GMT
I was wondering when you were going to post this. Saw this last weekend. What took you so long? You usually jump on these MCU-bashing opportunities much more quickly. Great response, fantastic analysis bud. I forgot criticising, sorry "bashing" the MCU is forbidden on this board. Maybe you're input is better suited to the many MCU safe space boards scattered around the internet. What kind of response are you looking for? You've already made up your mind and your agenda is pretty clear. You're even ok with pardoning Singer for the sake of your preference for the Fox-Men films. What point is there in discussing anything, unless you're just itching to argue? More importantly, why even watch MCU films at all? Is it solely to criticize? Are you holding out hope for the one day they make the kind of film you want? Because that just isn't their goal. It never has been. I'm ok with that because these films are entertaining and they bring me back to my childhood. That's enough for me. I don't take these things as seriously as you and your bro summers8 do apparently. I'm just wondering what you're going to do now that Fox has sold to Disney. You'll always have the old films and you don't have to like the MCU, but this is pretty much a done deal now. |
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Oct 18, 2018 20:44:26 GMT
Let's be real here, the only X-Men film to have stakes here is Logan.
Which is what Captain Marvel is doing...
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