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Post by politicidal on Jan 3, 2019 18:29:18 GMT
She took part in the battle between tribes at the end of the movie using her scientific inventions. And even if she did receive combat training what difference would it have made if her more experienced, stronger and faster older brother couldn't defeat Killmonger either? DC-Fan, seriously, punch out for the day. Save your strength for Captain Marvel.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 3, 2019 18:52:07 GMT
She is also not the same character as those Mera and Atlanta from entirely different movies with backgrounds and rules. So that plays no part into anything. The character wasn't as a warrior so she didn't fight. So basically she wasn't allowed to be the sovereign then. Because part of the job of being a sovereign is knowing how to defend your throne from enemies. And that's not just Queen Atlanna and Princess Mera in the Aquaman movie. In the Clash of the Titans remake, Princess Andromeda wore armor and had a sword and led her troops in battle. In The Phantom Menace, Queen Amidala led her supporters in battle as well. Neither Princess Andromeda in Clash of the Titans nor Queen Amidala in The Phantom Menace were warriors. But as sovereigns or heirs to the throne, they had to defend their throne by leading their people in battle. So it doesn't matter if T'Challa's sister is a scientist and not a warrior. As a potential heir to the throne, she should've been given combat training at a young age so that if she became the ruler one day she would be able to defend the throne by leading her people in battle. The only reason to not give her combat training would be if women weren't allowed to rule in Wakanda so she wouldn't have the responsibility to defend the throne and lead her people in battle. So basically you believe women are not valuable if they don't know how to fight.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 4, 2019 20:00:47 GMT
She took part in the battle between tribes at the end of the movie using her scientific inventions. So unlike Princess Andromeda in the Clash of the Titans remake and Queen Amidala in The Phantom Menace and Queen Hippolyta in Wonder Woman, T'Challa's sister was a coward who stayed away from the battle while others went to battle and risked their lives for her family. even if she did receive combat training what difference would it have made if her more experienced, stronger and faster older brother couldn't defeat Killmonger either? So T'Challa's sister wasn't willing to risk her life to protect her family's throne but was perfectly willing to go and beg another male tribal leader to risk his life to protect her family's throne?
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 4, 2019 20:12:03 GMT
So basically she wasn't allowed to be the sovereign then. Because part of the job of being a sovereign is knowing how to defend your throne from enemies. And that's not just Queen Atlanna and Princess Mera in the Aquaman movie. In the Clash of the Titans remake, Princess Andromeda wore armor and had a sword and led her troops in battle. In The Phantom Menace, Queen Amidala led her supporters in battle as well. Neither Princess Andromeda in Clash of the Titans nor Queen Amidala in The Phantom Menace were warriors. But as sovereigns or heirs to the throne, they had to defend their throne by leading their people in battle. So it doesn't matter if T'Challa's sister is a scientist and not a warrior. As a potential heir to the throne, she should've been given combat training at a young age so that if she became the ruler one day she would be able to defend the throne by leading her people in battle. The only reason to not give her combat training would be if women weren't allowed to rule in Wakanda so she wouldn't have the responsibility to defend the throne and lead her people in battle. So basically you believe women are not valuable if they don't know how to fight. There's nothing wrong with a woman not knowing how to fight. But if a woman who doesn't know how to fight expects a man to do her fighting for her, then that basically makes the woman look like a weak character because not only is she not capable of standing up for herself but she expects a man to stand up for her. Like in Black Panther when T'Challa's sister wouldn't challenge Killmonger for the throne (which is Ok if she's afraid she can't beat Killmonger) but then goes running to another male tribal leader to beg him to challenge Killmonger for the throne. That may have been OK in medieval times, but here in the 21st century, a woman shouldn't go begging another man to fight her battles for her. If women want more independence and freedom and less dependence on men, then that includes being capable of standing up for themselves and not begging another man to fight their battles for them, like T'Challa's sister did in Black Panther. That makes women look weak and need to depend on men to fight their battles for them. Of course, since Wakanda still chooses their leader through a medieval and savage ritual of mortal combat (while most of the rest of the world has figured out how to have a peaceful transition of power here in the 21st century), it's no surprise that Black Panther would hold on to the medieval notions that women are weak and not capable of fighting their own battles and need men to fight their battles for them.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 4, 2019 20:18:47 GMT
So basically you believe women are not valuable if they don't know how to fight. There's nothing wrong with a woman not knowing how to fight. But if a woman who doesn't know how to fight expects a man to do her fighting for her, then that basically makes the woman look like a weak character because not only is she not capable of standing up for herself but she expects a man to stand up for her. Like in Black Panther when T'Challa's sister wouldn't challenge Killmonger for the throne (which is Ok if she's afraid she can't beat Killmonger) but then goes running to another male tribal leader to beg him to challenge Killmonger for the throne. That may have been OK in medieval times, but here in the 21st century, a woman shouldn't go begging another man to fight her battles for her. If women want more independence and freedom and less dependence on men, then that includes being capable of standing up for themselves and not begging another man to fight their battles for them, like T'Challa's sister did in Black Panther. That makes women look weak and need to depend on men to fight their battles for them. Of course, since Wakanda still chooses their leader through a medieval and savage ritual of mortal combat (while most of the rest of the world has figured out how to have a peaceful transition of power here in the 21st century), it's no surprise that Black Panther would hold on to the medieval notions that women are weak and not capable of fighting their own battles and need men to fight their battles for them. So you're saying that a woman who does not want to fight is automatically weak? You say there's nothing wrong with a woman who doesn't know how to fight but you're claiming it's wrong if she doesn't want to fight.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 4, 2019 20:29:38 GMT
There's nothing wrong with a woman not knowing how to fight. But if a woman who doesn't know how to fight expects a man to do her fighting for her, then that basically makes the woman look like a weak character because not only is she not capable of standing up for herself but she expects a man to stand up for her. Like in Black Panther when T'Challa's sister wouldn't challenge Killmonger for the throne (which is Ok if she's afraid she can't beat Killmonger) but then goes running to another male tribal leader to beg him to challenge Killmonger for the throne. That may have been OK in medieval times, but here in the 21st century, a woman shouldn't go begging another man to fight her battles for her. If women want more independence and freedom and less dependence on men, then that includes being capable of standing up for themselves and not begging another man to fight their battles for them, like T'Challa's sister did in Black Panther. That makes women look weak and need to depend on men to fight their battles for them. Of course, since Wakanda still chooses their leader through a medieval and savage ritual of mortal combat (while most of the rest of the world has figured out how to have a peaceful transition of power here in the 21st century), it's no surprise that Black Panther would hold on to the medieval notions that women are weak and not capable of fighting their own battles and need men to fight their battles for them. So you're saying that a woman who does not want to fight is automatically weak? No, you seem to be slow at getting things so I'll try to explain it to you more slowly. There's nothing wrong with a woman who doesn't want to fight. But if a woman who doesn't want to fight expects a man to do her fighting for her, like T'Challa's sister did in Black Panther, then she IS a weak woman who feels that she's entitled to be defended and protected by men. The women in Aquaman were strong characters because they were fully capable of standing up for themselves while the women in Black Panther were weak characters because not only did they refuse to stand up for themselves but they had the nerve to go begging another male to fight their battles for them as if they were entitled to be defended or protected by men rather than fight their own battles.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 4, 2019 20:36:44 GMT
You say there's nothing wrong with a woman who doesn't know how to fight but you're claiming it's wrong if she doesn't want to fight. No, you seem to be slow at getting things. I didn't say it's wrong if she doesn't want to fight. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to fight.
But it's wrong that T'Challa's sister didn't want to fight but was so willing to go begging another man to fight her battle for her as if she was entitled to be defended and protected by men. T'Challa's sister basically said "I'm too much of a coward to risk my life and fight for my family's throne so I want you, a man, to go risk your life and fight for my family's throne."
That makes women look weak because they have to depend on a man to fight their battle for them. That may have been OK in medieval times, but here in the 21st century when women want more independence and freedom and less dependency on men, they should go running to a man begging a man to fight their battles for them.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 4, 2019 20:45:56 GMT
You say there's nothing wrong with a woman who doesn't know how to fight but you're claiming it's wrong if she doesn't want to fight. No, you seem to be slow at getting things. I didn't say it's wrong if she doesn't want to fight. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to fight.
But it's wrong that T'Challa's sister didn't want to fight but was so willing to go begging another man to fight her battle for her as if she was entitled to be defended and protected by men. T'Challa's sister basically said "I'm too much of a coward to risk my life and fight for my family's throne so I want you, a man, to go risk your life and fight for my family's throne."
That makes women look weak because they have to depend on a man to fight their battle for them. That may have been OK in medieval times, but here in the 21st century when women want more independence and freedom and less dependency on men, they should go running to a man begging a man to fight their battles for them. Actually that's exactly what you said. You said it's wrong that Shuri chose not to fight. You also claim that it's wrong for women to ask help from warriors to fight for their country. Seems to me you have a very bigoted view of what gives women value.
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Post by scabab on Jan 5, 2019 1:14:37 GMT
T'Challa's sister was a coward who stayed away from the battle while others went to battle and risked their lives for her family. I literally just said she took part in the battle. So T'Challa's sister wasn't willing to risk her life to protect her family's throne but was perfectly willing to go and beg another male tribal leader to risk his life to protect her family's throne? What would be the purpose in that? There is no risk, she obviously wouldn't win, it's a risk if she had a chance at winning but she doesn't. So they went a found M'Baku who was the next strongest warrior in Wakanda after T'Challa.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 5, 2019 1:43:48 GMT
T'Challa's sister was a coward who stayed away from the battle while others went to battle and risked their lives for her family. I literally just said she took part in the battle. To say that she took part in the battle would be like saying the guy who manufactured the guns used by the seals to raid bin Laden's compound took part in the raid. She stayed away from the actual fighting while others went to battle and risked their lives for her family. What would be the purpose in that? There is no risk, she obviously wouldn't win, it's a risk if she had a chance at winning but she doesn't. So they went a found M'Baku who was the next strongest warrior in Wakanda after T'Challa. She didn't want to challenge Killmonger because she knew she couldn't win (which is OK) so instead she goes to another male warrior and begs him to fight her battle for her (which makes women in Wakanda look weak because they can't fight their own battles and depend on men to fight their battles for them).
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jan 5, 2019 1:45:14 GMT
T'Challa's sister was a coward who stayed away from the battle while others went to battle and risked their lives for her family. I literally just said she took part in the battle. So T'Challa's sister wasn't willing to risk her life to protect her family's throne but was perfectly willing to go and beg another male tribal leader to risk his life to protect her family's throne? What would be the purpose in that? There is no risk, she obviously wouldn't win, it's a risk if she had a chance at winning but she doesn't. So they went a found M'Baku who was the next strongest warrior in Wakanda after T'Challa. Dude, why do you continue to put up with his shit? You know all these questions are bullshit.
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Post by scabab on Jan 5, 2019 2:48:46 GMT
She stayed away from the actual fighting No she didn't. She confronted Killmonger. She didn't want to challenge Killmonger because she knew she couldn't win (which is OK) so instead she goes to another male warrior and begs him to fight her battle for her (which makes women in Wakanda look weak because they can't fight their own battles and depend on men to fight their battles for them). That's your own interpretation of it. They already said that Okoye was one of if not the best warrior in all of Wakanda. She was the very first person that they asked for help, the woman. When she refused they asked the next best in line which is M'Baku.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 4:26:03 GMT
It's already well-known that MCU hasn't made a female-led movie in 10 years and 20 movies and is only making Captain Marvel as a reaction to WB announcing a Wonder Woman movie so I won't rehash that. But looking at MCU's movies so far, it sure seems that MCU likes to devalue and sometimes even demean female characters. For example, Tony Stark, who is known for being a playboy and sleeping with many different women, sleeps with a female reporter and then the female reporter is referred to as "Trash". That's really demeaning to women. And Black Panther takes the devaluation of female characters to a new level. Not only are all the women in Wakanda subservient to a King and have to take orders from a King, but women aren't allowed to rule in Wakanda. When Killmonger throws T'Challa over the edge of the waterfall, apparently killing T'Challa and winning the throne of Wakanda, the logical thing for T'Challa's family to do would be for T'Challa's sister to challenge Killmonger for the throne. But Wakanda doesn't allow women to rule. So instead of T'Challa's sister, who's at 100%, challenge Killmonger for the throne, they needed a wounded T'Challa who was almost killed and who isn't at 100% to challenge Killmonger for the throne. Was it because they didn't believe a female could defeat Killmonger? Or was it simply because Wakanda doesn't allow women to rule? Either way, it devalues women. ![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2c/55/93/2c559319ccb1cbcfa44226bd430259b5.jpg)
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Post by poutinep on Jan 5, 2019 4:38:29 GMT
I literally just said she took part in the battle. To say that she took part in the battle would be like saying the guy who manufactured the guns used by the seals to raid bin Laden's compound took part in the raid. She stayed away from the actual fighting while others went to battle and risked their lives for her family. What would be the purpose in that? There is no risk, she obviously wouldn't win, it's a risk if she had a chance at winning but she doesn't. So they went a found M'Baku who was the next strongest warrior in Wakanda after T'Challa. She didn't want to challenge Killmonger because she knew she couldn't win (which is OK) so instead she goes to another male warrior and begs him to fight her battle for her (which makes women in Wakanda look weak because they can't fight their own battles and depend on men to fight their battles for them). what's the site where you watch new theatrical releases online legally I'd like to try it
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 3, 2019 18:51:29 GMT
So basically you're confirming what I've bene saying - that they wanted a male (M'Baku) to challenge Killmonger for the throne instead of a female (T'Challa's sister) because they didn't believe a female could defeat Killmonger in combat. Right. So how does that devalue the female characters again? Why would a female scientist be able to defeat a male black ops soldier in combat? Black Panther devalues women because it portrays women as being incapable of standing up for themselves and need to beg men to fight their battles for them. Diana, Mera, and Atlanna all demonstrated that they were capable of standing up for themselves and holding their own in battle. But T'Challa's sister is incapable of standing up for herself and needs to beg a man to fight for her throne. You've argued before that T'Challa's sister wasn't trained to fight, but that's not a good excuse. Just look at another movie that Chris Hemsworth was in: Snow White and the Huntsman. Snow White's father (the King) was murdered and Snow White was imprisoned by her stepmother (the evil Queen) when she was a child. Eventually, the adult Snow White escaped and found where her loyal followers had been hiding ever since the King was murdered. Snow White obviously had no battle training while she was imprisoned, but she still had the courage to lead her loyal followers into battle against the Queen's army and she herself fought the evil Queen to reclaim her rightful throne. But T'Challa's sister was too much of a coward to fight for her throne. Moreover, if she didn't want to fight for her throne herself because she thought she would lose, that's excusable. But not only did she not want to fight for her throne herself, but she ran to a man and begged a man to fight her battle for her. That's really demeaning to women and devalues women because Black Panther is saying that not only are women incapable of standing up for themselves and holding their own in battle but also women are nothing more than damsels-in-distress who need men to fight their battles for them.
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Post by Skaathar on Jun 3, 2019 19:02:54 GMT
Can we just close this thread? It's obvious that DC-Fan is not really interested in the discussion but just wants to keep hammering people with his very sexist opinions.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 3, 2019 19:12:52 GMT
Can we just close this thread? It's obvious that DC-Fan is not really interested in the discussion but just wants to keep hammering people with his very sexist opinions. He actually said this despite the prominent role of the Dora Milaje in the film: There's nowhere for this conversation to go, you can't argue with stupid.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jun 3, 2019 19:18:12 GMT
Can we just close this thread? So you want to censor all differing and dissenting opinions?
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Post by bud47 on Jun 3, 2019 20:01:16 GMT
Can we just close this thread? So you want to censor all differing and dissenting opinions? You've already expressed your opinion on the matter and the discussion has been had. It just goes on and on in a never-ending circle. There's no reason to keep this going other than you're bored and looking for attention. You're not looking to have a healthy debate. You're just instigating for fun and feeding off of the frustration of others. It's pretty sick.
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Post by scabab on Jun 4, 2019 2:52:46 GMT
You've argued before that T'Challa's sister wasn't trained to fight, but that's not a good excuse. Just look at another movie that Chris Hemsworth was in: Snow White and the HuntsmanBut that's immediately a none arguement. Why are you mentioning another character from another movie entirely? That's a completely separate entity within itself where the movie and that characters story arc revolved around that one character. That movie was called Snow White and that was about her arc as the main character. This is Black Panther, it's not about the secondary character Shuri and her having that kind of arc. The man that she "ran to and begged" was M'Baku, a man of considerable strength with the backing of an entire tribe behind him to potentially stand up to it. Did you bump this thread just to troll or something?
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