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Post by lenlenlen1 on Apr 27, 2017 18:55:34 GMT
The problem DC is facing isn't just a series of rather bad films or losing money.
It's that 10 years of kids have now grown up with Marvel being the clear brand name in comics. And if another 10 years go by, DC will be in a position of being nearly unrecoverable.
I know it's hard for you to imagine that Superman could not be a relevant character, or Batman. But seriously imagine for one moment, that you're 7 years old. Captain America, Iron Man, Thor are everywhere from the time you can remember school until the day you graduate, and all you know is that there were some shitty Superman films with some other guys you didn't pay much attention to. You didn't grow up with Christopher Reeve, he wasn't even alive, and you don't care about those films all that much. You didn't grow up with all the classic comic book stories either, and The Dark Knight was before your time. All you know about comics is that the MCU got you into them, and you went to see film after film every few months, while watching your favorite Netflix characters and Agents of Shield in between.
If another 10 years go by, you will have almost 2 generations of children who think of Marvel first, and of DC as that older company that used to be a big deal. Kind of like how you think of Netflix instead of Blockbuster video, or Home Depot instead of Ace Hardware. Yes, big companies do fall into obscurity as difficult as it is to accept that in the here and now.
I'm not joking. Imagine being 10 right now. It's all Marvel for you right now and always will be. How many more years can DC afford to lose forever? I understand what you're saying, believe me I do. You make some interesting points, but your analogies are a tad off. Consider this...
Look at Star Wars, look at Transformers, look at Power Rangers, even look at My Little Pony! Franchises always rejuvenate themselves. They come and go and then they come again.
Your analogies are about businesses, not franchises. Businesses are physical entities which do fail. Franchises are intellectual properties that can always be rejuvenated.
Currently DC is kicking Marvels butt in comics sales. Who knows? Maybe in ten years DC movies will be thought of as being the better movies after all. You never know!
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 27, 2017 20:36:23 GMT
If you want more detailed data, then just look it up, but I've already suggested more Marvel merchandise can be found on any shelf. That isn't because it sells less.
Your prediction that the super hero bubble will burst has been going on for 15 years. I predict if lasts another 30 years, you'll still be ready to say you were right when it finally does.
And supes is a second tier character. It's why his movies don't sell any better than Doctor Strange, and that will continue to be the trend, because everybody basically realizes he's boring. There isn't going to be a day where Superman is back on top. He's only relevant in the same way somebody like Babe Ruth is. We get he was a big deal in the past, but that's about as far as it goes.
you love your fallacies Stanton - hardly a sentence without at least one, that's nearly FallaciousRaptor level bad. Ok, so you do not get the concept, fair enough, how about moving on to the facts level? oh really? I thought in 2002 the bubble got only started, after the disaster of Batman & Robin. Prove it then or it's a lie (cf fallacy). I think you do not grasp what a bubble is. Superhero films were always around and always popular (and get forgotten quickly unless about Superman or Batman), and will be continue as long as there are impressionable children. But the aggressive bombardment with several films a year only started with DC and Marvel only after 2002. Hence the bubble talk and ppl from Spielberg down being annoyed! lol, if you believe it it's not a lie, Stanton. Agreed Supes is super lame, but he is still THE proto superhero: google most famous/popular superhero and Supes will be top. His films made a lot of money before Dr Strange, and alas will make a lot of money after Dr Strange, Antman & Co have long faded into oblivion again. Sorry, to burst your bubble, pal.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 27, 2017 21:19:28 GMT
I understand what you're saying, believe me I do. You make some interesting points, but your analogies are a tad off. Consider this...
Look at Star Wars, look at Transformers, look at Power Rangers, even look at My Little Pony! Franchises always rejuvenate themselves. They come and go and then they come again.
Your analogies are about businesses, not franchises. Businesses are physical entities which do fail. Franchises are intellectual properties that can always be rejuvenated.
Currently DC is kicking Marvels butt in comics sales. Who knows? Maybe in ten years DC movies will be thought of as being the better movies after all. You never know!
Comic sales are almost entirely irrelevant at this point. The vast majority of the business is now film.
And you are correct that intellectual properties have a different nature, but that doesn't mean they can't fade, and in fact they often do. We don't get a whole lot of Dracula stories any more for instance. Characters can get old and we already see that with Superman. It's pretty common knowledge at this point that he's a bland character with no real upside. And if there's no real upside then the idea that he's just going to keep coming back just means he's going to keep coming back smaller and smaller.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 27, 2017 21:24:06 GMT
If you want more detailed data, then just look it up, but I've already suggested more Marvel merchandise can be found on any shelf. That isn't because it sells less.
Your prediction that the super hero bubble will burst has been going on for 15 years. I predict if lasts another 30 years, you'll still be ready to say you were right when it finally does.
And supes is a second tier character. It's why his movies don't sell any better than Doctor Strange, and that will continue to be the trend, because everybody basically realizes he's boring. There isn't going to be a day where Superman is back on top. He's only relevant in the same way somebody like Babe Ruth is. We get he was a big deal in the past, but that's about as far as it goes.
you love your fallacies Stanton - hardly a sentence without at least one, that's nearly FallaciousRaptor level bad. Ok, so you do not get the concept, fair enough, how about moving on to the facts level? oh really? I thought in 2002 the bubble got only started, after the disaster of Batman & Robin. Prove it then or it's a lie (cf fallacy). I think you do not grasp what a bubble is. Superhero films were always around and always popular (and get forgotten quickly unless about Superman or Batman), and will be continue as long as there are impressionable children. But the aggressive bombardment with several films a year only started with DC and Marvel only after 2002. Hence the bubble talk and ppl from Spielberg down being annoyed! lol, if you believe it it's not a lie, Stanton. Agreed Supes is super lame, but he is still THE proto superhero: google most famous/popular superhero and Supes will be top. His films made a lot of money before Dr Strange, and alas will make a lot of money after Dr Strange, Antman & Co have long faded into oblivion again. Sorry, to burst your bubble, pal. Most of what you have here is just obnoxious babble.
Most famous does not equal anybody cares, just FYI. Ronald Mcdonald is very famous for instance, so you're just missing the point on supes. I'll include your smarmy can't have an adult conversation line, sorry to burst your bubble pal. Because that's mature and stuff.
And there isn't a bubble bursting coming any time soon, so get back to me when it happens.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 28, 2017 14:30:27 GMT
lol, if you believe it it's not a lie, Stanton. Agreed Supes is super lame, but he is still THE proto superhero: google most famous/popular superhero and Supes will be top. His films made a lot of money before Dr Strange, and alas will make a lot of money after Dr Strange, Antman & Co have long faded into oblivion again. Sorry, to burst your bubble, pal. That's because Superman is at legendary status. He's a cultural icon up there with Santa, Jesus and Dracula. People might know about him, but they'll know who he is. His movies will generally make money, but they won't be universally, or even, liked.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 28, 2017 15:02:21 GMT
lol, if you believe it it's not a lie, Stanton. Agreed Supes is super lame, but he is still THE proto superhero: google most famous/popular superhero and Supes will be top. His films made a lot of money before Dr Strange, and alas will make a lot of money after Dr Strange, Antman & Co have long faded into oblivion again. Sorry, to burst your bubble, pal. That's because Superman is at legendary status. He's a cultural icon up there with Santa, Jesus and Dracula. People might know about him, but they'll know who he is. His movies will generally make money, but they won't be universally, or even, liked. Dracula is a great example, it's not a series that makes money just because people know who the character is. There's a difference between saying everybody knows who it is, and everybody cares, and people who defend superman seem to enjoy confusing the two.
Jesus is a great example of somebody who is completely overrated. We can barely determine the guy even existed at all, much less than anything said about him was remotely true. The stories are just as likely to be about multiple people attributed to a single person, tall tales, or entirely fabricated. It's not like they've ever been verified, and yet, here we have people believing it and even basing their lives on it being true. I have no idea why.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 28, 2017 19:21:41 GMT
That's because Superman is at legendary status. He's a cultural icon up there with Santa, Jesus and Dracula. People might know about him, but they'll know who he is. His movies will generally make money, but they won't be universally, or even, liked. right, people evidently do not to like him. That's why we - and the generations since the 30ies - grew up to countless live action and cartoon shows (some spanning more than 10 seasons), countless movies (including undisputed classics) and other media, including spin off characters like Supergirl (currently plaguing TV together with Supes) or even teenage Superman in Smallville. That is because he is culturally iconic but not liked. Your fallacy is an ad absurdum argument and personal incredulity.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 28, 2017 21:18:07 GMT
That's because Superman is at legendary status. He's a cultural icon up there with Santa, Jesus and Dracula. People might know about him, but they'll know who he is. His movies will generally make money, but they won't be universally, or even, liked. right, people evidently do not to like him. That's why we - and the generations since the 30ies - grew up to countless live action and cartoon shows (some spanning more than 10 seasons), countless movies (including undisputed classics) and other media, including spin off characters like Supergirl (currently plaguing TV together with Supes) or even teenage Superman in Smallville. That is because he is culturally iconic but not liked. Your fallacy is an ad absurdum argument and personal incredulity. Like I said, it's because Superman has reached legendary status. Superman will keep having tv shows and animated series because of that status. Just like we will keep seeing things about vampires even though most of the vampire movies these days are crap. I also said that people will go see his movies even if they are crap. That his movies will make money even if the movie itself isn't good. Superman has transcended other characters. He's bigger than the DC universe. And yes, Superman is universally culturally iconic. Meaning, like I said, people know the character (his name and some of his powers), but they don't know who he is (actual story). Also, Superman is DC's biggest character because they gave him that push. Who are the other characters that DC gave a push to? Batman and ... Batman. During the war they pushed Superman just like Marvel pushed Captain America. But Superman got tv shows and movie serials. Batman didn't really get that like Superman. He got a couple movies and Adam West's show. Then he got quiet. Superman was constantly in the public eye. Superman is at the point they changed him so much that nobody knows what to do with him or even how to do him.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 29, 2017 14:37:54 GMT
His films made a lot of money before Dr Strange, and alas will make a lot of money after Dr Strange, Antman & Co have long faded into oblivion again. These McMarvel marks don't know their place. They are New Money fans. They can't handle this level of truth.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 29, 2017 17:51:43 GMT
It is ridiculous that MCU fanboys have to bring in Jesus and Dracula - who belong to the public domain unlike DC or Marvel superheroes - to their arguments. Dracula is not a corporately owned character; any companies can make a work based on him, and the success or failure of such products does not change the fact that Dracula is still a cultural phenomenon. This is also why you still know who Dracula is, even though the original Universal Monsters Cinematic Universe did not take place in your childhood. Jesus is perhaps a even more outrageous example in this debate. He is not an "IP", ready for Disney or Warner Bros. to exploit and monetize. You just reveal more fallacies as you cannot defend the original arguments. Now that you put this "out there," it's going to become a thing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 21:42:39 GMT
His films made a lot of money before Dr Strange, and alas will make a lot of money after Dr Strange, Antman & Co have long faded into oblivion again. These McMarvel marks don't know their place. They are New Money fans. They can't handle this level of truth. I am going to be there on the day you're proven wrong, and I am going to love to it.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Apr 29, 2017 21:46:55 GMT
These McMarvel marks don't know their place. They are New Money fans. They can't handle this level of truth. I am going to be there on the day you're proven wrong, and I am going to love to it. It was proven when BVS tried to steal CAP3's release date and a year later limped home bleeding with it's tail between it's legs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 21:52:39 GMT
I am going to be there on the day you're proven wrong, and I am going to love to it. It was proven when BVS tried to steal CAP3's release date and a year later limped home bleeding with it's tail between it's legs. True that. A movie about a bunch of characters who have only recently become popular kicked the piss out of a film starring Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. colden and all these other trolls have no ground to stand on and they know it. For all the "wit" they claim to have, it's failed to help them conjure up a decent DCEU.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 29, 2017 23:16:08 GMT
It was proven when BVS tried to steal CAP3's release date and a year later limped home bleeding with it's tail between it's legs. True that. A movie about a bunch of characters who have only recently become popular kicked the piss out of a film starring Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. colden and all these other trolls have no ground to stand on and they know it. For all the "wit" they claim to have, it's failed to help them conjure up a decent DCEU. Damn straight we don't. Not on that score. That's an indictment of DC, Warner, and anyone and everyone associated with rolling out the film, all of whom should've been in front of a firing squad -- or at least not working on anymore DC-related shit. All teasing you guys about RT etc., there is an art to packaging these movies in a palpable way, and BvS failed almost spectacularly in this respect. Not even because it failed to out-gross its MCU competitor, but because it became a fucking laughing stock prior to even being released. I saw it ironically, expecting nothing, and had a fun time watching it. But that's not really relevant here. As has been correctly stated there is no reason the movie wasn't more successful critically or commercially than it was other than ridiculously bad worth of mouth and pretty piss-poor marketing. Just because you're a fan of something doesn't mean you have to be a slavish marky mark for it. I'm a Chicago Bears fan (go ahead, take your shots; that jerkoff job squad has earned it!) and would've probably put a gun in my mouth five years ago if I had to just blindly root for the Monsters of the Midway without any of analysis or serious discussion of where they're faltering -- which, although it's completely off-topic, for the record? Is every aspect of running and being a professional football team. But I digress...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 0:29:15 GMT
True that. A movie about a bunch of characters who have only recently become popular kicked the piss out of a film starring Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. colden and all these other trolls have no ground to stand on and they know it. For all the "wit" they claim to have, it's failed to help them conjure up a decent DCEU. Damn straight we don't. Not on that score. That's an indictment of DC, Warner, and anyone and everyone associated with rolling out the film, all of whom should've been in front of a firing squad -- or at least not working on anymore DC-related shit. All teasing you guys about RT etc., there is an art to packaging these movies in a palpable way, and BvS failed almost spectacularly in this respect. Not even because it failed to out-gross its MCU competitor, but because it became a fucking laughing stock prior to even being released. I saw it ironically, expecting nothing, and had a fun time watching it. But that's not really relevant here. As has been correctly stated there is no reason the movie wasn't more successful critically or commercially than it was other than ridiculously bad worth of mouth and pretty piss-poor marketing. Just because you're a fan of something doesn't mean you have to be a slavish marky mark for it. I'm a Chicago Bears fan (go ahead, take your shots; that jerkoff job squad has earned it!) and would've probably put a gun in my mouth five years ago if I had to just blindly root for the Monsters of the Midway without any of analysis or serious discussion of where they're faltering -- which, although it's completely off-topic, for the record? Is every aspect of running and being a professional football team. But I digress... At least you're willing to admit WB's failing, unlike some of the other hardcore fans out there. Honestly, WB/DC should have no problem being more than a worthy adversary to MCU. They should be the default with Marvel having to work its ass off to keep up. I'm a Cubs fan, so I have no room throwing stones at a Bears fan.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2017 0:43:35 GMT
Damn straight we don't. Not on that score. That's an indictment of DC, Warner, and anyone and everyone associated with rolling out the film, all of whom should've been in front of a firing squad -- or at least not working on anymore DC-related shit. All teasing you guys about RT etc., there is an art to packaging these movies in a palpable way, and BvS failed almost spectacularly in this respect. Not even because it failed to out-gross its MCU competitor, but because it became a fucking laughing stock prior to even being released. I saw it ironically, expecting nothing, and had a fun time watching it. But that's not really relevant here. As has been correctly stated there is no reason the movie wasn't more successful critically or commercially than it was other than ridiculously bad worth of mouth and pretty piss-poor marketing. Just because you're a fan of something doesn't mean you have to be a slavish marky mark for it. I'm a Chicago Bears fan (go ahead, take your shots; that jerkoff job squad has earned it!) and would've probably put a gun in my mouth five years ago if I had to just blindly root for the Monsters of the Midway without any of analysis or serious discussion of where they're faltering -- which, although it's completely off-topic, for the record? Is every aspect of running and being a professional football team. But I digress... At least you're willing to admit WB's failing, unlike some of the other hardcore fans out there. Honestly, WB/DC should have no problem being more than a worthy adversary to MCU. They should be the default with Marvel having to work its ass off to keep up. I'm a Cubs fan, so I have no room throwing stones at a Bears fan. I'll bet the Cubbies win three more World Series before the Bears get it together enough to even lose another Super Bowl. But it's cool of you to say that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 1:08:48 GMT
At least you're willing to admit WB's failing, unlike some of the other hardcore fans out there. Honestly, WB/DC should have no problem being more than a worthy adversary to MCU. They should be the default with Marvel having to work its ass off to keep up. I'm a Cubs fan, so I have no room throwing stones at a Bears fan. I'll bet the Cubbies win three more World Series before the Bears get it together enough to even lose another Super Bowl. But it's cool of you to say that. Thanks.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2017 1:45:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2017 1:48:23 GMT
Fuck the Shitcago Cubs.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2017 2:02:43 GMT
C'mon, man. That's like the most uplifting sports story of the millennium thus far! I'm a Red Sox fan, and I was happy as hell for the Cubs.
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