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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 10, 2019 18:15:02 GMT
If the two worlds collide and the Galactic Empire led by Emperor Sidious and Darth Vader where to invade the MCU Earth (no Death Star though that's unfair) could the Avengers drive them off? Could Captain America stand up to the likes of Darth Vader? Scarlet Witch take out Darth...Captain Marvel the ships..the rest the stragglers. Hulk & Giant Man vs AT-AT...Avengers win No, Avengers couldn't stop the Empire nor can Scarlet Witch take out Vader. Vader would simply use his Jedi mind trick on Scarlet Witch and make Scarlet Witch take out the Avengers (similar to how Ultron made Scarlet Witch fight the Avengers).
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 10, 2019 18:16:11 GMT
Avengers, easy. Honestly I don't see Vader...or any force user...as being more powerful than Strange/Wanda/Danvers. The Empire wins easily. Vader would simply use his Jedi mind trick on Strange/Wanda/Danvers and make them take out the rest of the Avengers (similar to how Ultron made Scarlet Witch fight the Avengers).
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 10, 2019 18:17:26 GMT
I'm not too sure. They had their hands full with Thanos and his army and that would be tiny compared to the entire Empire. There was like the one big ship that Thanos had? Whereas you'd be talking all the Star Destroyers and other ships, all the Walkers and mini walkers? It wouldn't be Darth Vader and the Emperor that would be the problem. Half of the Avengers and the Wakanda army were struggling against that huge Ravager horde and they were just dumb, unharmed groundless beasts. If it was just them they'd stand no chance against the Empire. When you out in the others...no I still think that'd be way too many to handle. Agreed. The Empire doesn't even need all those Star Destroyers and ships. Vader and Palpatine could just use their Jedi mind trick to make the Avengers fight themselves.
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Post by poutinep on Dec 10, 2019 18:25:05 GMT
Avengers, easy. Honestly I don't see Vader...or any force user...as being more powerful than Strange/Wanda/Danvers. The Empire wins easily. Vader would simply use his Jedi mind trick on Strange/Wanda/Danvers and make them take out the rest of the Avengers (similar to how Ultron made Scarlet Witch fight the Avengers). Nope. That only works on 'weak-minded' people. Definitely won't work on Strange, a genius with eidetic memory that became Earth's Sorcerer Supreme in a short amount of time, nor Wanda who has super powers from the Mind Stone, nor Danvers who has super powers from the Space Stone.
Ultron didn't use a 'mind trick' he just used her hate for Stark to manipulate her and she eventually turned on him.
Who have we seen the mind trick work on? A couple stormtroopers, Jabba's Twi-lek lackey Bib Fortuna... all I can think of.
The Jedi mind trick wouldn't work on a single Avenger... maybe some Ravagers, but that's it. Definitely won't work on anyone with super powers, or anyone with an advanced degree like a masters of engineering.
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 10, 2019 18:32:19 GMT
The Empire wins easily. Vader would simply use his Jedi mind trick on Strange/Wanda/Danvers and make them take out the rest of the Avengers (similar to how Ultron made Scarlet Witch fight the Avengers). Ultron didn't use a 'mind trick' he just used her hate for Stark to manipulate her and she eventually turned on him.
So basically Wanda is weak-minded and can be easily manipulated and thus a prime candidate to be manipulated by the Jedi mind trick. Just like Hulk, who went on a rampage and destroyed a city in Africa.
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Post by poutinep on Dec 10, 2019 18:36:41 GMT
Ultron didn't use a 'mind trick' he just used her hate for Stark to manipulate her and she eventually turned on him.
So basically Wanda is weak-minded and can be easily manipulated and thus a prime candidate to be manipulated by the Jedi mind trick. Just like Hulk, who went on a rampage and destroyed a city in Africa. She hated Stark for years because of the bomb/mortar shell with his name on it that sat undetonated in her home after its impact killed her parents, trapping her and Pietro for 2 days.
That she turned against Ultron and sided with Stark and his allies, conquering her anger that she held onto for years, proves she is not weak-minded.
Wanda's mind trick is simply more powerful than the Jedi mind trick.
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Post by sostie on Dec 10, 2019 19:07:07 GMT
I'm kinda thinkin' if the thread was Could the Avengers stop My Little Pony? the answer would still not be "yes" or even "maybe" from DC-Fan
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 10, 2019 19:10:45 GMT
It would take a bit of time considering how many Empire ships they are, but I'm pretty sure Danvers and Thor alone can eventually wipe them all out.
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Post by sostie on Dec 10, 2019 19:46:28 GMT
It would take a bit of time considering how many Empire ships they are, but I'm pretty sure Danvers and Thor alone can eventually wipe them all out. And if Vadar is on one of them ships, he's fucked
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 10, 2019 19:51:47 GMT
It would take a bit of time considering how many Empire ships they are, but I'm pretty sure Danvers and Thor alone can eventually wipe them all out. And if Vadar is on one of them ships, he's fucked Yup. I'd like to see him try to force-choke someone tough enough to survive a neutron star or strong enough to throw around missile rockets.
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Post by scabab on Dec 10, 2019 19:52:54 GMT
How would you stop the sorcerers from traveling ship to ship and wiping them out? They can't do that in the first place. As was said in Doctor Strange, they have to visualise the location that they are going to travel to. Without knowing anything about the Star Destroyer, it's interior, it's layout they can't just pop up inside it. That would be why they didn't destroy Thanos' ship in the same way. They'd never reach the ship to begin with, they'd just be shot down and all that effort at best would result in taking down just one ship. If Darth Vader or the Emperor was on the ship they couldn't take him anyway. But the only one or maybe two who even have a prayer of getting in there would be Thor and Captain Marvel. If this was like Endgame when everyone was at Avengers HQ and everyone came out of the warp holes and then standing hundred feet away was Darth Vader and the Emperor along with the Stormtroopers on the ground and the Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters in the sky, they would not be able to get up there before they were all killed. There'd be such a small handful of characters that could possibly even reach the ships but it'd be like dodging rain, they'd be shot down long before they could get up there.
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Post by scabab on Dec 10, 2019 19:58:35 GMT
Yup. I'd like to see him try to force-choke someone tough enough to survive a neutron star or strong enough to throw around missile rockets. Well Ultron could choke Thor so it's possible. I don't know if Darth Vader could beat someone like Thor but he'd take Iron Man. If Aldrich Killian can cut through his armour like butter then a lightsaber could. He'd just crush him within the suit or dismantle it, send the missiles back at him etc.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 10, 2019 20:01:04 GMT
How would you stop the sorcerers from traveling ship to ship and wiping them out? They can't do that in the first place. As was said in Doctor Strange, they have to visualise the location that they are going to travel to. Without knowing anything about the Star Destroyer, it's interior, it's layout they can't just pop up inside it. That would be why they didn't destroy Thanos' ship in the same way. They'd never reach the ship to begin with, they'd just be shot down and all that effort at best would result in taking down just one ship. If Darth Vader or the Emperor was on the ship they couldn't take him anyway. But the only one or maybe two who even have a prayer of getting in there would be Thor and Captain Marvel. If this was like Endgame when everyone was at Avengers HQ and everyone came out of the warp holes and then standing hundred feet away was Darth Vader and the Emperor along with the Stormtroopers on the ground and the Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters in the sky, they would not be able to get up there before they were all killed. There'd be such a small handful of characters that could possibly even reach the ships but it'd be like dodging rain, they'd be shot down long before they could get up there. They could find the layouts online. Star Wars exists as movies in the MCU, everything they need to know is readily available. /thread
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 10, 2019 20:02:16 GMT
How would you stop the sorcerers from traveling ship to ship and wiping them out? They can't do that in the first place. As was said in Doctor Strange, they have to visualise the location that they are going to travel to. Without knowing anything about the Star Destroyer, it's interior, it's layout they can't just pop up inside it. That would be why they didn't destroy Thanos' ship in the same way. They'd never reach the ship to begin with, they'd just be shot down and all that effort at best would result in taking down just one ship. If Darth Vader or the Emperor was on the ship they couldn't take him anyway. But the only one or maybe two who even have a prayer of getting in there would be Thor and Captain Marvel. If this was like Endgame when everyone was at Avengers HQ and everyone came out of the warp holes and then standing hundred feet away was Darth Vader and the Emperor along with the Stormtroopers on the ground and the Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters in the sky, they would not be able to get up there before they were all killed. There'd be such a small handful of characters that could possibly even reach the ships but it'd be like dodging rain, they'd be shot down long before they could get up there. All excellent points. Also, in addition to Vader and Palpatine being able to use the Jedi mind trick to make the Avengers fight themselves, the Avengers could never kill Vader or Palpatine because Vader and Palpatine can just be millions of miles away and project their images millions of miles, like Luke did in The Last Jedi.
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 10, 2019 20:03:41 GMT
Yup. I'd like to see him try to force-choke someone tough enough to survive a neutron star or strong enough to throw around missile rockets. I don't know if Darth Vader could beat someone like Thor but he'd take Iron Man. If Aldrich Killian can cut through his armour like butter then a lightsaber could. He'd just crush him within the suit or dismantle it, send the missiles back at him etc. That's true. Vader would just use Iron Man's own suit to crush him the same way that Magneto would do it.
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Post by sostie on Dec 10, 2019 20:14:22 GMT
They can't do that in the first place. As was said in Doctor Strange, they have to visualise the location that they are going to travel to. Without knowing anything about the Star Destroyer, it's interior, it's layout they can't just pop up inside it. That would be why they didn't destroy Thanos' ship in the same way. They'd never reach the ship to begin with, they'd just be shot down and all that effort at best would result in taking down just one ship. If Darth Vader or the Emperor was on the ship they couldn't take him anyway. But the only one or maybe two who even have a prayer of getting in there would be Thor and Captain Marvel. If this was like Endgame when everyone was at Avengers HQ and everyone came out of the warp holes and then standing hundred feet away was Darth Vader and the Emperor along with the Stormtroopers on the ground and the Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters in the sky, they would not be able to get up there before they were all killed. There'd be such a small handful of characters that could possibly even reach the ships but it'd be like dodging rain, they'd be shot down long before they could get up there. All excellent points. Also, in addition to Vader and Palpatine being able to use the Jedi mind trick to make the Avengers fight themselves, the Avengers could never kill Vader or Palpatine because Vader and Palpatine can just be millions of miles away and project their images millions of miles, like Luke did in The Last Jedi. Can you point out to me where Vadar or Palpatine ever controlled someone to the point they were able to fight someone else. If he could there'd be much shorter Star Wars films with different outcomes
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 10, 2019 20:15:50 GMT
Yup. I'd like to see him try to force-choke someone tough enough to survive a neutron star or strong enough to throw around missile rockets. Well Ultron could choke Thor so it's possible. I don't know if Darth Vader could beat someone like Thor but he'd take Iron Man. If Aldrich Killian can cut through his armour like butter then a lightsaber could. He'd just crush him within the suit or dismantle it, send the missiles back at him etc. Final form Ultron was able to withstand the combined blasts of Thor's lightning, IM's arc reactor and Vision's infinity stone. He was also strong enough to out-muscle Thor and Vision. I don't believe Vader's force powers can match Ultron's raw strength. I don't recall any force-power feats from Vader that indicates he can crush IM's suit or send missiles back at him either.
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 10, 2019 20:30:15 GMT
Ok... I want to make a fairer assessment of this match-up.
Though I do think the Avengers eventually win, majority of them do die in the process. Every non-enhanced human will die, like Black widow and Hawkeye and the Wakandians, etc. Every super soldier level will also die - they'll put up a fight but in the end the numbers of the Empire are too high and will overcome them. Every person who doesn't have heightened toughness will die, even if they have technology to assist them. So yes, Falcon, Warmachine, Wasp... even Ironman. Their equipment is strong but I don't see them surviving the onslaught of blaster fire coming their way and their tech/armor will eventually get ruined and fail. Even Wanda will perish. As strong as she is, we know her shields had trouble standing up to a bomb (Civil War) or the bombardment that Thanos called down. Her shields will eventually succumb to the blaster fire of the Empire, especially if their tie fighters start raking the ground with fire.
Dr. Strange's shields seem stronger than Wanda's but he's still not perfect, as we've seen Ebony Maw's attacks slip through his defenses. He'll cause some massive mayhem but in the end he also falls.
Hulk, Giantman and the Asgardians will be pretty much undefeatable on the ground and will completely wreck the Empire's ground troupes. Problem is unless they can fly, they will still get bombarded by tie fighters and spaceships firing down on them. Hulk can put a bit of a fight due to his jumping ability but we already saw him get overwhelmed by enemy fire in the Avengers.
So in the end, the Avenger's hope really rests on Thor, Captain Marvel and Vision, since they're the only ones who can fly and keep up with aerial combat while at the same time being tough enough to trade firepower. IM, Warmachine and Valkyrie will assist too but I don't see them withstanding too much damage.
So I do think the Avengers eventually win, but only Thor, Carol and maybe Vision will be left alive. And Hulk probably knocked out somewhere as well.
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Post by poutinep on Dec 10, 2019 22:09:02 GMT
Not good points. Nonsense points. Yeah...that's what Nightcrawler said in X-Men 2 but then it turned out he didn't have to see where he was going. All those portals in Endgame, do you think every sorcerer that made one had been to that spot before or seen it? Did they all know what it looked like at that time? Can they visualize that spot as they had previously seen it and still successfully make a portal even though it was then a scene of utter devastation?
Stormtrooper effect. 'Nuff said. Wow The Avengers only have two people that can kill an enormous spaceship in seconds? They really are screwed! Also, in addition to Vader and Palpatine being able to use the Jedi mind trick to make the Avengers fight themselves, the Avengers could never kill Vader or Palpatine because Vader and Palpatine can just be millions of miles away and project their images millions of miles, like Luke did in The Last Jedi. There was never any indication Vader or Palpatine are capable of the astral projection Luke used. Since Luke is the only one we've seen do that, it's safe to say it isn't a standard Force-User ability. The Avengers aren't 'weak-minded' so the Jedi mind trick won't work on them. Wanda's worked on the Avengers because her version of that ability is simple more powerful than the Jedi one... just as her telekinesis is more powerful than we've seen Force-users use.
Anyone siding with the Empire on this is ignoring two crucial points; The Avengers are the good guys, and the Empire are the bad guys. The good guys beat the beat guys. That's not my rule, that's just how story-telling is.
Can we stop fawning over Jedi/Sith please? Sure they're powerful in Star Wars, but if you're going to compare them people with super powers from other franchises, they get out-classed pretty quick.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 22:17:58 GMT
If they can't, they'll avenge it. I wouldn't want to press our luck though. The Empire will suffer serious casualties in the retaliation but it might come in the aftermath of destroying our planet with most people on it. Then it'll be up to Captain Marvel and the Guardians of the Galaxy to do something. If Thor's on Earth he might survive and float unconsciously through space until he wakes up, freaks out and flings himself to the nearest planet.
The Empire's almost 99% foot soldier anyways, but we're in trouble if they lay the first blow.
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