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Post by scabab on Dec 11, 2019 18:50:39 GMT
I said forget about them in the first scenario since you weakly tried to explain them away. No, you said the Sorcerers could open portals that would allow the Avengers and Wakandas to enter the ship. This is incorrect because as the movie explained they have to visualise where they're going. If they don't know what the interior of a Star Destroyer looks like then they can't get in. That's not weakly explaining them away, that's you having them do something that they can't even do. Now you're saying they'll mop up the Walkers and Stormtroopers when again they couldn't even do that with the Outriders. You're trying to give an explanation for them winning by doing something they clearly can't do.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 11, 2019 19:02:09 GMT
I said forget about them in the first scenario since you weakly tried to explain them away. No, you said the Sorcerers could open portals that would allow the Avengers and Wakandas to enter the ship. This is incorrect because as the movie explained they have to visualise where they're going. If they don't know what the interior of a Star Destroyer looks like then they can't get in. That's not weakly explaining them away, that's you having them do something that they can't even do. Now you're saying they'll mop up the Walkers and Stormtroopers when again they couldn't even do that with the Outriders. You're trying to give an explanation for them winning by doing something they clearly can't do. No, in the post you quoted from this morning, if you read it, I come up with an alternative way to get them aboard the ship.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 19:19:34 GMT
He stopped a bunch of a laser blasts from Han Solos gun so the speed ain't a problem. Well Force Lightning is a completely separate ability but the ability to move and throw things using the Force would surely be something anyone can do. He was throwing things at Luke. He threw a bunch of machine parts at some aliens too. I don't think there was anything in the movies. There might be something in the comics or cartoons. Unless she has an infinite amount of stamina then of course. She'd also be under fire from tens of thousands of star cruisers and she's not invincible. Those Star Destroyers also have shields unlike Thanos' ship. I already explained how the Avengers could easily win. You had no argument, so you moved on to someone else. Forget the sorcerers, let's say they're mopping up the walkers and ground troops. Thor uses the Bifrost to get into a Super Star Destroyer (or captain Marvel just punches her way in, whatever), the Avengers take control of the bridge and that's that. Rinse, repeat. All of this nonsense about how there are too many ships to overcome is ignoring the reality of the situation. Star Destroyers can't shoot at what they can't see. Once the heroes have seized a Super Star Destroyer and a few other ships, I don't know what the rest of the fleet is going to do. They don't know who's on their side, they don't know what to fire upon, and now holy shit heroes just appeared on their bridge, too. There could be a billion stormtroopers and hundreds of thousands of walkers and none of them would be able to prevent this from happening. Once the fleet is destroyed, the ground forces are sitting ducks. Explain to me how the empire would combat this scenario. Tell me how the 25,000 Star Destroyers would come about and start firing on the Super Star Destroyer that was just knocked out of commission before the heroes moved onto the next one. The lack of imagination in this thread is staggering. Everyone is just basing their argument on the assumption it would be a battlefield brawl because that's how it played out in the movie. There are no writers here playing to an audience. I'm talking about tactics meant to win the battle, not look good on screen. Hell, Wanda could make a Super Star Destroyer captain go crazy, or just destroy the bridge herself in seconds. I wonder what would happen if Tony hacked their communication channels and wreaked havoc? How about Ant-Man meddling with Star Destroyer artillery? Mantis putting the Grand Admiral to sleep as the fleet descends into chaos awaiting orders? I wonder how many Star Destroyers would continue the fight once a few of them were commandeered and performed a hyperdrive kamikaze maneuver like in TLJ? (Since you insist they can't teleport into a place they don't know, the sorcerers are shrunk down with Ant-Man & Wasp to come aboard with Captain Marvel or Thor. Take the bridge, lock onto another part of the fleet and teleport out as you hit the hyperdrive.) There are a hundred different ways the heroes could take control of the most important vessels in the fleet, and from there it's all over. The stormtroopers on the ground would be scratching their asses watching the fireworks in orbit until the last ship came crashing down or hyperjumped the hell out of there. I'm confident they'd surrender once Captain Marvel took the heads off 50 AT-ATs in a single flyby. I wasn't assuming it'd be a battlefield brawl. Now that it's been clarified that it's essentially and Endgame type battle it limits the strategy I would have used against the Avengers, which was to develop the weapon they had in The Force Awakens where it's essentially a planet rigged to power the weapon by absorbing the sun and discharging from several solar systems away. If the empire played it smart, they'd wipe out earth and everyone on it before the avengers even know what the empire is.
That's how they win not a battle but a war. I didn't even factor Darth Vader or the emperor into that strategy. The empire could deal significant blows without leaving the station.
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Post by poutinep on Dec 11, 2019 19:31:05 GMT
He stopped a bunch of a laser blasts from Han Solos gun so the speed ain't a problem. Yep, unlike MCU Quicksilver (who's the only speedster that's too slow to pick a bullet out of the air) LOL Barry Allen says hi "Jedi Knights are quick enough to be able to use a light saber to deflect laser blasts from guns at close range so speed wouldn't be a problem for a skilled and powerful Jedi like Vader. that's not their speed though but their 'force reflex' makes them almost psychic and also rips off Spider-Man's Spidey Sense. plus blaster blasts are slower than bullets. we've never seen Force users move at superhuman speed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 20:01:57 GMT
Yep, unlike MCU Quicksilver (who's the only speedster that's too slow to pick a bullet out of the air) LOL Barry Allen says hi That poor poor man, shot right in the eyeball.
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Post by scabab on Dec 11, 2019 22:44:06 GMT
we've never seen Force users move at superhuman speed. We did actually in The Phantom Menace.
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 11, 2019 22:53:39 GMT
we've never seen Force users move at superhuman speed. We did actually in The Phantom Menace. Remind me which scene?
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Post by poutinep on Dec 11, 2019 23:15:40 GMT
we've never seen Force users move at superhuman speed. We did actually in The Phantom Menace. I stand corrected. Apparently it's been used once throughout the movies, when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run away from two destroyer droids. That they used it to run away from a couple droids instead of to destroy the droids doesn't really help the whole 'Empire over Avengers' argument.
Wookieepedia says Darth Maul used it in a book to run five times faster than a normal human. Another Jedi supposedly ran 100 minutes in one second. So...fast, but not speedster fast... and apparently it's only good for a brief burst, not extended use.
Reminds me of 'The Whizzer' that appeared in Jessica Jones... he's super fast... but only when he's scared.
We did actually in The Phantom Menace. Remind me which scene? Beginning of Phantom.
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Post by scabab on Dec 11, 2019 23:55:35 GMT
If you look at the video I posted on the first page, Mace Windu used super speed and strength too.
That's probably the best example of something to actually see.
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Post by poutinep on Dec 12, 2019 0:16:20 GMT
If you look at the video I posted on the first page, Mace Windu used super speed and strength too. That's probably the best example of something to actually see. that's just a silly ass cartoon. what's possible in its canon just doesn't mesh with live-action canon.
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Post by scabab on Dec 12, 2019 1:14:50 GMT
Well you referred to a book. There's certain limitations to movies, they can display more of what they're capable of in animation.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 23, 2019 17:04:02 GMT
Well you referred to a book. There's certain limitations to movies, they can display more of what they're capable of in animation. I'm undecided after seeing TROS. On one hand, I want to conceded the Empire would win now that every Star Destroyer is a Death Star. On the other hand, take out the bridge of the flagship and the whole fleet apparently becomes useless (which was my strategy, though I didn't think it would instantly end the fighting the way it seems to in the film). Any new thoughts after seeing the film?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 19:01:56 GMT
Well you referred to a book. There's certain limitations to movies, they can display more of what they're capable of in animation. I'm undecided after seeing TROS. On one hand, I want to conceded the Empire would win now that every Star Destroyer is a Death Star. On the other hand, take out the bridge of the flagship and the whole fleet apparently becomes useless (which was my strategy, though I didn't think it would instantly end the fighting the way it seems to in the film). Any new thoughts after seeing the film? Not that it's me being asked, but I had a few thoughts.
It's not that I want the empire to win, they're the bad guys, but I picked up what I thought were some serious questions about the Avenger's invincibility.
Starting with Scarlet Witch, she's very strong, but can't last forever. Her attack is as good as she can hold out with endurance, but she can tire and needs to sleep. I like the idea of her taking out legions with a move or two as well but she's squishy, made of flesh. A blaster could kill her. A bullet could kill her. A well landed blow from Mike Tyson might do it, and I'm sure she could stand a barrage of fire for bit but at peak concentration.
Vision, and to a lesser extent, Captain Marvel. She is a walking infinity stone, very powerful, all but Superman like in her strength, toughness, ability to fly through space. I don't have much criticism of her form, but I think it's a stretch that nothing from the Star Wars universe could harm her. If you just plum slashed her face with a light saber, what would happen? It just bounce off?
Don't get me wrong, I know they're tough. Thor took a star to the face in Infinity War at a place that welds weapons capable of penetrating the most reinforced possible armor. Vision was impaled relative to normal with an alloy developed somewhere, and not only is he a walking infinity stone like Captain Marvel, he's made of Vibranium to boot. Captain Marvel's a walking infinity stone made of skin.
Talk about the big guns (the only type of guns worth using in a fight like this) I don't know for sure any of the Godly or infinity stone clad avengers could take one of their planet destroying blasts head on and live. Maybe, but my preference for the sake of argument is the most likely weapon from the star wars universe to do real damage in close quarters combat is the light saber.
Almost any way you slice it, the empire at its lowest is probably millions of people, so it'll always be at least a million versus about a dozen.
My strategy was still to fire from a distance, making earth's destruction as apocalyptic and unforeseen event as vacuuming a cluster of spider webs. If I were the avengers and we were avenging, my strategy (I think) would be similar to the beginning of Endgame: operate under the premise that if you kill the big bad leader, the rest will scatter and fall. I don't know if it'll work. It might be like a hydra where you cut off one head, another grows, but that would be my strategy. I never like giving villains the ego trip of being saved for last, like they're special. I've no qualms about going for the biggest big bad first to make an example.
Fun topic.
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Post by scabab on Dec 23, 2019 19:26:25 GMT
I haven't seen the movie yet and won't be able to do until next year but does the First Order even count as being part of the Galactic Empire?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 23, 2019 19:32:58 GMT
I haven't seen the movie yet and won't be able to do until next year but does the First Order even count as being part of the Galactic Empire? I feel like the answer is kind of a spoiler. Yes.
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 23, 2019 23:42:47 GMT
I don't know for sure any of the Godly or infinity stone clad avengers could take one of their planet destroying blasts head on and live. So basically most of the Avengers would be wiped out in the first 2 minutes. If I were the avengers and we were avenging, my strategy (I think) would be similar to the beginning of Endgame: operate under the premise that if you kill the big bad leader, the rest will scatter and fall. I don't know if it'll work. It might be like a hydra where you cut off one head, another grows, but that would be my strategy But there's always an apprentice ready to take over when the master dies.
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Post by merh on Dec 25, 2019 1:51:26 GMT
Thor & the Eternals could have interacted with the Empire.
I suspect Asgardian weaponry might be superior
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 25, 2019 2:08:10 GMT
Thor & the Eternals could have interacted with the Empire. I suspect Asgardian weaponry might be superior Doubtful. Asgard couldn't even survive 1 fire demon. Asgard would have no chance against a fleet of plant-destroying warships.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 25, 2019 13:31:56 GMT
Okay, didn't read the entire thread, but on a couple things. Iron Man and Friday could get the schematics of the bridge of a Star Destroyer easily just by doing a fly-by and showing the hologram to a "wizard". Hell, I bet they can even place a camera there for them. Gi-Ant-man tore the wing off of an airplane. Pushing over or tripping AT-ATs and AT-STs would be no problem. Hulk would crush the "heads" of them easily just by jumping from one to the other. Captain Marvel.
Also, Star Wars is a thing in the MCU. They referenced it in Civil War and used the strategy to beat Gi-Ant-man. After the shock of seeing movie villains in front of them, they'd pull out all the ways the Empire was defeated in the movies against them.
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 25, 2019 17:02:17 GMT
Gi-Ant-man tore the wing off of an airplane. Pushing over or tripping AT-ATs and AT-STs would be no problem. Hulk would crush the "heads" of them easily just by jumping from one to the other. Captain Marvel. Gi-Ant-man and Hulk and most of the Avengers can't fly in space. The Empire's planet-destroying warships can just fire their weapons from space and wipe out most of the Avengers.
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