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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 20, 2023 17:00:09 GMT
Well, everyone deserves a second chance. We all know how to block people if it comes to that. But still, the idea that Disney somehow fooled people into liking MCU is about as credible as the premise of ‘Sword Art Online’. I mean, did he forget that the MCU film before ‘Quantumania’ was ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’, which mostly received praise? Sure, but people who dislike Marvel will call it 'false praise' while insisting all the criticism is valid. I mentioned that in my post. There's room for praise and critique, though I would advise against going overboard in either direction. People are free to dislike these movies, I just don't see the value in posting about it as much as some of them do. And while I will voice my disagreements from time to time, I'm not going to go formerdamhmd and push back against all criticism 24/7.
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Post by hi224 on Feb 20, 2023 17:01:53 GMT
I'd love to see these series and shows maybe take more chances and raise the stakes a bit more. I always know what to practically expect from a Marvel movie or show and that's not good at all. I really would love more of an auteur touch but then Feige would never allow a director a significant amount of power on these differing movies, its his way or the highway unfortunately. Well, a series like MCU would need some sort of guiding hand in order to make sure that it doesn’t go off rails like ‘Star Wars’ sequel trilogy did, not to mention that the director having a full control is not always a good thing. I mean, remember ‘Cats’? Still, I feel like audiences are feeding into how artificial, monotonous, and derivative these things are starting to feel, box office is pretty strong, but also slowly diminishing, which might feed into such a perception. I will say Feige actually being a fan was integral for its success ultimately.
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Post by blockbusted on Feb 20, 2023 17:04:15 GMT
Well, a series like MCU would need some sort of guiding hand in order to make sure that it doesn’t go off rails like ‘Star Wars’ sequel trilogy did, not to mention that the director having a full control is not always a good thing. I mean, remember ‘Cats’? Still, I feel like audiences are feeding into how artificial, monotonous, and derivative these things are starting to feel, box office is pretty strong, but also slowly diminishing, which might feed into such a perception. I will say Feige actually being a fan was integral for its success ultimately. Well, MCU seems to be trying to be more experimental in Phase 4, not to mention that they made some of the most somber films lately.
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Post by blockbusted on Feb 20, 2023 17:06:10 GMT
But still, the idea that Disney somehow fooled people into liking MCU is about as credible as the premise of ‘Sword Art Online’. I mean, did he forget that the MCU film before ‘Quantumania’ was ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’, which mostly received praise? Sure, but people who dislike Marvel will call it 'false praise' while insisting all the criticism is valid. I mentioned that in my post. There's room for praise and critique, though I would advise against going overboard in either direction. People are free to dislike these movies, I just don't see the value in posting about it as much as some of them do. And while I will voice my disagreements from time to time, I'm not going to go formerdamhmd and push back against all criticism 24/7. I don’t blame that former guy when it comes to charzhino. For me, this guy’s credibility went down the toilet when he defended and even suggested that ‘Fant4stic’ is better than MCU - or at least I think he did.
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Post by Cat on Feb 20, 2023 17:14:53 GMT
Not everything has to last forever. The MCU would be fine to relegate itself to animated shows that don't have to care about continuity, but the first 3 phases blew through the villains. It wouldn't be an issue if it didn't continue, but quite a few villains died.
The other issue I see is the first 3 phases felt connected, whereas it's less clear these films are joined by some overall story. That may change with Ant-Man, though. The films now are okay. They just don't have an electrifying feel to them. Stylistically they work better as standalone movies, but they depend on each other for story so that's impossible. The Avengers and the MCU are some of the defining movies and moments of the 2010's. It should not be a surprise that the MCU peaked. They were on top for a long period, changed the game, created imitations and made money. It's okay to peak. Phase 4 in general seems superfluous. Criticisms of the MCU made in the past are catching up now because now it's beating a dead horse.
A lot of people (in my opinion) don't know how to blame capitalism for the neverending string of sequels, reboots, and franchise fatigue, so they took it out on the MCU. Now some of those criticisms are starting to apply because making money is starting to take over quality. Critics never got that during the MCU's rise, volume and substance were in sync. Now volume's taking over quality, and although they're making money hand over fist, it's losing the appeal of fans who once upon a time weren't too embarrassed to be enjoying the MCU with normal people.
Call it a consequence of excessive success, but the MCU balanced superhero fans with mainstream audiences for as long a streak as I've ever seen. It's not reasonable to expect it to last much longer when it's already lasted as long as it has. IMO.
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Post by blockbusted on Feb 20, 2023 17:21:56 GMT
Not everything has to last forever. The MCU would be fine to relegate itself to animated shows that don't have to care about continuity, but the first 3 phases blew through the villains. It wouldn't be an issue if it didn't continue, but quite a few villains died.
The other issue I see is the first 3 phases felt connected, whereas it's less clear these films are joined by some overall story. That may change with Ant-Man, though. The films now are okay. They just don't have an electrifying feel to them. Stylistically they work better as standalone movies, but they depend on each other for story so that's impossible. The Avengers and the MCU are some of the defining movies and moments of the 2010's. It should not be a surprise that the MCU peaked. They were on top for a long period, changed the game, created imitations and made money. It's okay to peak. Phase 4 in general seems superfluous. Criticisms of the MCU made in the past are catching up now because now it's beating a dead horse.
A lot of people (in my opinion) don't know how to blame capitalism for the neverending string of sequels, reboots, and franchise fatigue, so they took it out on the MCU. Now some of those criticisms are starting to apply because making money is starting to take over quality. Critics never got that during the MCU's rise, volume and substance were in sync. Now volume's taking over, and although they're making money hand over fist, it's losing the appeal of fans who once upon a time weren't too embarrassed to be enjoying the MCU with normal people.
Call it a consequence of excessive success, but the MCU balanced superhero fans with mainstream audiences for as long a streak as I've ever seen. It's not reasonable to expect it to last much longer when it's already lasted as long as it has. IMO.
You also need to remember that MCU had a setback with COVID-19 and got thrown into a colossal disarray when Chadwick Boseman passed away.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 20, 2023 17:22:45 GMT
You can't do these movies without CGI, there is no real formula you wouldn't find in other long-running series, and there's more stakes than in something like FoX-Men where they kept resetting things back to where X2 left off. At least the MCU leaves dead characters dead and keeps moving forward.
The people complaining now about Phase 4 are simply hypocrites.
You can do it without them looking like video games. But that would require time and effort, something Feige avoids in his solo movies. Foxs Xmen had stakes. What youre seeing now with this new multiverse is the abandonment of stakes more than ever. Black Widow movie was made after her death even if it was a prequel. Visions death in Endgame was undercut when he re-appeared in Wandavision. And Gamora is back too in the next Guardians lmao. Your 100% right, those people complaining now are hypocrites. Gladly I'm not one of them. I've been calling out MCU movies since Age of Ultron back in 2015. Nothing has changed with the recent movies your right. Its just interesting it took this long for people to start turning on the MCU. Maybe its because the original batch of Avengers are no more. Sorry, but the Quantum Realm was pretty darn close to the comics themselves with how whacked out it looked. It really IS that crazy. And the DCEU and FoX-Men's CGI is worse.
The CGI you complain about in Black Panther? It was better than the Sentinels were in DOFP.
FoX-Men had no stakes, everytime anything big happened or changed they always reset.
Black Widow did come too late, but it also gave us Yelena which was worthy it.
Vision did die, the Vision we have now is a new entity trying to figure out whether he's really old Vision or some imitation. Proper character analysis. As opposed to FoX-Men where it's never really delved into what happened to bring Xavier back.
Gamora did die, this is another version of her from another Universe where she never underwent any character development. Proper character analysis will happen in Volume 3.
Good that the OG are gone, you don't stick to the OG forever you finish their stories and go forward. Like how Xavier and Jean and everyone else who died in X3 SHOULD have stayed dead.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 20, 2023 17:24:00 GMT
You can do it without them looking like video games. But that would require time and effort, something Feige avoids in his solo movies. Foxs Xmen had stakes. What youre seeing now with this new multiverse is the abandonment of stakes more than ever. Black Widow movie was made after her death even if it was a prequel. Visions death in Endgame was undercut when he re-appeared in Wandavision. And Gamora is back too in the next Guardians lmao. Your 100% right, those people complaining now are hypocrites. Gladly I'm not one of them. I've been calling out MCU movies since Age of Ultron back in 2015. Nothing has changed with the recent movies your right. Its just interesting it took this long for people to start turning on the MCU. Maybe its because the original batch of Avengers are no more. That's definitely a significant factor, but I disagree with the idea that there's nothing different here. I think Marvel took a ton of chances in Phase four, and they all blew up in their face. Now that's unfair, in no way did the D+ shows and Shang-Chi backfire.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 20, 2023 17:25:14 GMT
I'd love to see these series and shows maybe take more chances and raise the stakes a bit more. I always know what to practically expect from a Marvel movie or show and that's not good at all. I really would love more of an auteur touch but then Feige would never allow a director a significant amount of power on these differing movies, its his way or the highway unfortunately. I mean, do you want some Prima Donna control freak running roughshod over characters?
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Post by blockbusted on Feb 20, 2023 17:33:25 GMT
That's definitely a significant factor, but I disagree with the idea that there's nothing different here. I think Marvel took a ton of chances in Phase four, and they all blew up in their face. They made a prequel about a dead character. They made television shows and tried to connect them to the films in an inconsistent manner. They gave a solo film to an incredibly minor character in Shang-Chi. They went out on a limb with an auteur director with Eternals. They chose not to recast after Chadwick Boseman's death, and built a story around the loss of an incredibly popular character. These were all risky moves, and many of them didn't really pan out the way the studio had hoped, and there's no question phase four has, for the most part, been less popular with fans, due in no small part to these creative decisions. Yes they changed their content palette but not their style. This is why I say nothing changed, they are still making their patented formulaic movies and have been since 2015. I've not even seen most of those you mentioned, but from the trailers and reviews its easy to see how they play out. They were repetitive but at the time they were still carried by likeable characters/actors that people wanted to see team up. I dont see that same clamor for this new batch of heroes, Strange, Thor, Antman, Shuri, Shang Chi etc. And people are seeing through it, just read any normal user review and youll see the phrases of ''its become stale'' ''its not for me anymore'' ''I checked out after Endgame'' and similar appear many times. The PR can only last so long and Im surprised it did last as long as it did. These few posts are the most I've discussed the MCU in nearly 2 years. I've only seen Antman, Dr Strange, No Way Home and Thor L&T of the new phase. Its just funny to see bots like formersamhd still defending these movies. And also very interesting reading that superfans like Archstanton has also gave up and thrown in the towel on the MCU. I like to explore the reasons why rather than care about the movies in specific. And I'm still hanging around until MCU give us their version of the X-men, its the last thing that really has any levels of interest for me personally. I guess there was a mass unban sometime this year. 1. What are you talking about? Phase 4 tried all sorts of experimental stuffs including some of the tones that they went with, including some of their most somber films in their portfolio. 2. They kind of had no choice at least partly due to the passing of Chadwick Boseman. 3. I am NOT buying that for one second. You’ve been spitting nothing but anti-MCU biles for years.
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Post by blockbusted on Feb 20, 2023 17:33:55 GMT
That's definitely a significant factor, but I disagree with the idea that there's nothing different here. I think Marvel took a ton of chances in Phase four, and they all blew up in their face. Now that's unfair, in no way did the D+ shows and Shang-Chi backfire. Or ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’.
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Post by Cat on Feb 20, 2023 17:55:16 GMT
Not everything has to last forever. The MCU would be fine to relegate itself to animated shows that don't have to care about continuity, but the first 3 phases blew through the villains. It wouldn't be an issue if it didn't continue, but quite a few villains died.
The other issue I see is the first 3 phases felt connected, whereas it's less clear these films are joined by some overall story. That may change with Ant-Man, though. The films now are okay. They just don't have an electrifying feel to them. Stylistically they work better as standalone movies, but they depend on each other for story so that's impossible. The Avengers and the MCU are some of the defining movies and moments of the 2010's. It should not be a surprise that the MCU peaked. They were on top for a long period, changed the game, created imitations and made money. It's okay to peak. Phase 4 in general seems superfluous. Criticisms of the MCU made in the past are catching up now because now it's beating a dead horse.
A lot of people (in my opinion) don't know how to blame capitalism for the neverending string of sequels, reboots, and franchise fatigue, so they took it out on the MCU. Now some of those criticisms are starting to apply because making money is starting to take over quality. Critics never got that during the MCU's rise, volume and substance were in sync. Now volume's taking over, and although they're making money hand over fist, it's losing the appeal of fans who once upon a time weren't too embarrassed to be enjoying the MCU with normal people.
Call it a consequence of excessive success, but the MCU balanced superhero fans with mainstream audiences for as long a streak as I've ever seen. It's not reasonable to expect it to last much longer when it's already lasted as long as it has. IMO.
You also need to remember that MCU had a setback with COVID-19 and got thrown into a colossal disarray when Chadwick Boseman passed away. I'm torn on Covid19 setbacks because it's tempting not to argue it wasn't enough of the break they needed after the decade long resolution of the first 3 phases. The worst thing about how the MCU was affected besides the passing of Boseman was the delayed Black Widow release. In my opinion anyways. If It was released closer to the time of its chronology in the story then it would have made phase 3 even better. It's my fave of phase 4 because it recaptures the phase 3 rising action. I think from the moment Doctor Strange showed up in Thor: Ragnarok, the rising action of the MCU took a steep inline. Around there is where Black Widow's movie would be, part of that incline. That's what Phase 4 is missing I think. The feel that each film is a part of the same rising action. So, my favourite movie of phase 4 feels like a standalone movie within it.
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever was as good as it could be for a tough watch. I didn't feel things were really resolved at the end, but than that, it was missing Boseman too much. It wasn't bad without him, it was decent. It did what I would have done, which is acknowledge it at the beginning. I also thought it was interesting for Nakia to have gone off and done her own thing, but she seems to me like the next main character, partly because of her role in the story and partly because (imo) Lupita Nyong'o is one of their best assets.
I didn't personally care for The Eternals. Spiderman: No Way Home, I really liked but I'm skeptical about some of the doors it opens, and I'm wondering if it's too soon for him to hit a trilogy, but this was when I thought he'd be the new Iron Man character/center of it all, the one giving the speeches. I don't know if he is anymore, so who knows. Plus even though I liked NWH a lot, I don't know how keen I am for this level of universe swapping.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2023 18:13:44 GMT
I really think it was the DisneyFlix shows that opened a lot of fans eyes up to the worst aspects of the MCU. I was always slightly critical of the franchise but at the same time, a huge fan. Then I saw some of those shows and could absolutely finally see clearly why some people hate this franchise. They really are the epitome of the soulless corporate copy/paste content machines that run entertainment now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2023 18:17:23 GMT
Now that's unfair, in no way did the D+ shows and Shang-Chi backfire. Or ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’. Do you really see Shuri as as good a character as T’Challa? Do you think Shang Chi had a character arc as good as Stark? Do you expect audiences to care as much about an alternate time displaced Loki who already died in the main canon as much as Steve Rogers? I’m admittedly being hyperbolic here, but you see my point.
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Post by blockbusted on Feb 20, 2023 18:24:48 GMT
Or ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’. Do you really see Shuri as as good a character as T’Challa? Do you think Shang Chi had a character arc as good as Stark? Do you expect audiences to care as much about an alternate time displaced Loki who already died in the main canon as much as Steve Rogers? I’m admittedly being hyperbolic here, but you see my point. You’ll eventually have to introduce new characters and I think MCU did they best they could - at least when it comes to films. I haven’t seen enough TV series to judge those ones yet.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2023 18:28:18 GMT
Do you really see Shuri as as good a character as T’Challa? Do you think Shang Chi had a character arc as good as Stark? Do you expect audiences to care as much about an alternate time displaced Loki who already died in the main canon as much as Steve Rogers? I’m admittedly being hyperbolic here, but you see my point. You’ll eventually have to introduce new characters and I think MCU did they best they could - at least when it comes to films. I haven’t seen enough TV series to judge those ones yet. Fair enough, I suppose. I just think it’s lacking now when it comes to Cap/Stark level characters. Shang Chi teaming up with Shuri and Loki will do absolutely nothing for me personally.
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Post by Lux on Feb 20, 2023 19:28:20 GMT
The one good thing about Phase 4 being NWH you can't even stand that and you wonder why people think you're ridiculous. NWH was gutless fanservice meant to appeal to the fans of the older non-MCU Spidey movies and wrap up THOSE storylines instead of properly advancing MCU Spider-Man. They advanced him by having him lose his aunt thus him having to live life without her while Black Panther 2 was a shallow pity party to tug at the heartstrings that's all. Basically a 2 hour charity for the bereaved cast.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Feb 20, 2023 19:34:06 GMT
I don't know if it's the worst or if there is just too much of it and I'm starting not to care.
I haven't seen a single phase four movie in theaters. I think I saw 18 of the 23 of phase 1-3 in theaters.
I've also only re-watched Hawkeye in full and the Shang-Chi bus scene a bunch of times.
Also, I just had to look it up and didn't even realize we're already in Phase Five.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 20, 2023 19:41:25 GMT
I really think it was the DisneyFlix shows that opened a lot of fans eyes up to the worst aspects of the MCU. I was always slightly critical of the franchise but at the same time, a huge fan. Then I saw some of those shows and could absolutely finally see clearly why some people hate this franchise. They really are the epitome of the soulless corporate copy/paste content machines that run entertainment now. WandaVision, Falcon/Winter Soldier, Loki, Hawkeye and Ms Marvel were "Soulless"?
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 20, 2023 19:42:36 GMT
NWH was gutless fanservice meant to appeal to the fans of the older non-MCU Spidey movies and wrap up THOSE storylines instead of properly advancing MCU Spider-Man. They advanced him by having him lose his aunt thus him having to live life without her while Black Panther 2 was a shallow pity party to tug at the heartstrings that's all. Basically a 2 hour charity for the bereaved cast. So Spider-Man has a new Woman in a Refrigerator while Wakanda Forever paid proper tribute to a dead character.
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